Biophilic Design Enhancing Well-being and Environment [2of2] - Vanessa Champion - BS112

00:00:00    JEFFREY HART
Hello and welcome to episode 112 of the Building Sustainability Podcast. My name is Geoffrey Hart and every fortnight join me as I talk to designers, builders, makers, dreamers and doers. Together we can explore the wide world of sustainability in the built environment by talking to wonderful people who are doing excellent things. So this is part two of my chat with Vanessa Champion. It's a bit more materials focused, example projects, sustainability, interior landscapers. Is it a trend? We also talk about the journal for biophilic design, which is excellent. There's a link in the show notes, of course. That's all for me. Get straight

00:00:59    JEFFREY HART
of the things I wanted to ask you, and this is me satisfying my own work feelings, but I think at Biophilia we talk a lot about greenery. and about plants and about leaves and, you know, the trees. It was good to hear you mention clay and, you know, earth, because I wondered, a lot of my work is around clay plasters or earthen floors and, you know, Less about the greenery, more about the brownery is what I'm kind of interested in. And so, yeah, interested to know if there's sort of much research in terms of, you know, clay and earth in terms of benefits. Because I could, you know, I could bore everyone senseless with how physically, you know, say an earth plaster is physically incredible for your health. So I'm hoping that you're going to say it's incredible for your mind as well.

00:02:05    VANESSA CHAMPION
Well, yes, it's definitely incredible for your mind. It's interesting. I actually don't know of much research that's been done. And when you ask me that question, I'm thinking there was something I read and I can't remember where it was. And it was something to do with people had looked at. I think it was like I think it was actually in Africa where they was using kind of local clay, local materials and the difference it made to like people studying and things. But I can't remember. I'm sure it was in Africa and not in South America. I need to look that one up, actually, but that's a really good question. But I'm definitely with you on the whole, you know, biophysical design isn't just about greenery, isn't just about plants and leaves and trees and flowers and all these sort of things. It's actually about the natural materials. It's funny, actually, because people do talk about wood building. So people are kind of moving away from just talking about plants and greenery, but actually talking now about wood, wood tables, wood materials, wood, wood construction, wood, wood, wood, wood, wood. But not a lot of people are talking about earth and about clay and clay finishes. Do you know Bjorn Beyer? He's, I know Sven Beyer, he's the potter, the ceramicist. Yeah and I know he does cob buildings and I've sort of was exposed to cob building concept through Sven and his son and when I found out how how simple it is and how eco-friendly it is. We know that rounded shapes are good for us. We know that from an environmental psychology point of view, there's loads of research to show that unstraight lines are good for us. We know that curves are good for our brains. We know that even if we just go back to the biophilic things, this thing called mystery, where we create these lines that kind of move and sort of undulate, but take us around a corner where we can't really see. If you think about nature, nothing's got straight lines, nothing straight, everything's wonky. And so we know from an environmental psychologist, there's lots of research, actually, if you go to the space doctors, There's an iJournal on there and you can actually search for research on there for curves, if you just put curves in. So there'll be loads that comes up for that. And I think there's stuff on there about earth buildings. I do need to look up. I actually run that with Dr. Sally Augustine, who's one of the leading environmental psychologists. And yeah, that's really interesting. Actually, I need to I need to look that up. I was also going to say about mushrooms and things like that, where I went to the workplace event a few months ago in London at the Business Design Center and upstairs, there was the design, the research design people and they had these mycelium panels and oh my god, Geoffrey, they were like, as you touch them, they were like velvet and that for me fascinates me, it's like you said, they're these marvellous acoustic panels and they were using it for like all different things as well, you know, kind of vessels and things, but I'm thinking, oh my goodness, this is for a tactile kind of soft um finish so they're fantastic they're using mushrooms so the mycelium kind of thing so yeah i'm definitely i'm definitely advocate um more than just plants and greenery and clay and earth so yeah i'd love to chat more about that sometime actually maybe on maybe on our podcast

00:05:48    JEFFREY HART
jeffrey We'll do the return leg. Um, yes, I think the, the mushroom mycelium is, it's such an exciting thing. And I feel like I've been saying that for a few years and nothing's quite doesn't, it hasn't quite ramped up the way I, um, I hoped it would, but, um, it seems to me like. they could be an absolute wonder material, both in terms of sort of carbon, but also in terms of, you know, the sensory benefits. Yeah, absolutely. And I do wonder, you know, it's

00:06:20    VANESSA CHAMPION
like with hempcrete and sort of alternative concrete, it's like, oh, hemp, oh, it's made out of that hippie stuff. And, oh, mushrooms, oh, it's made out of that hippie stuff. It's like, you know, it's like changing mindsets again, isn't it? There's like a, It's amazing even when you, you know, it's been so hard to kind of convince people that we need plants in the workplace. And there's still like old school businesses that's like, no, I don't want that in here because that's like fluffy. It's like, and I, do you know what I mean? It's like, this is, it's sort of a, which is, it's like changing, it is, it's changing mindsets, isn't it? It's changing and encouraging people to access and experience and then and then there'll be a change but yeah I think the more they're exposed to it and the more it's in and I think that's another reason why it's really important to get things like these sort of mushrooms or hempcrete or the other alternatives and like you say the brownery you know clay building materials to get them actually into mainstream events like the construction week and all this sort of stuff you know these these construction things because there's otherwise you end up we all end up talking in silos again So yeah, we need to get more of the eco side of things in these like mainstream spaces. Yeah, I was media partner for a workplace event in the NEC and alongside it was also the health and safety kind of thing. I mean, it was all like, you know, I mean, like, you know, what am I doing here? I'm so different. Obviously I was talking about biophilic design, biophilic design in a built environment, construction, yadda yadda. And there's people, and I've just, all I've got are pictures of trees behind me. That's it. I've got the journal of biophilic design, pictures of trees, and people don't even know what it is. It's like, what's this? I've got like a facts and figures thing, a pop-up banner next to me that's got like, oh, you know, if we have plants in the built environment, we know that it reduces, you know, antisocial behavior by 80%. Oh, okay, then they get that. But the amount the people who came there, and I won't mention any names, but these were like humongous construction companies and really big, you know, mainstream purveyors of pollution. as well. And they were like, well, what's this then? What's this? What is this? And, you know, and it's because you're in random places. that people go, oh, okay, so because you're here, you must be in our tribe, so therefore I'll kind of listen. So I think, you know, I know that's not your question, but it's also, I think that there's a case to making sure that there's representation of us in these places where people are not expecting us to be. and being presented in a way that's like, oh, OK, this is cool. Yeah, I get this. Because then that's probably the only way. It's like with our conference that we're going to have, it's like, who do I invite? And you've got to make sure you invite your enemy as well, haven't you? So they're in the room, we can all have this

00:09:24    JEFFREY HART
conversation. So we were talking, we sort of moved on quite nicely onto the workplace. And I wanted to ask you, there was a thing, one of the Zoom regeneratives with Martin Brown a few years ago. The sort of topic was, is biophilic design the special source for sort of solving climate crisis? And I thought it was an interesting proposition because I think you said that sort of biophilic design of plants could increase productivity by 50% or double it. I forget the stat, I'm terribly sorry. But I wondered, you know, what if the baddies use it? What if the big oil companies start putting biophilic design all around their offices? Will they get better at destroying the world? Or is it that, you

00:10:25    VANESSA CHAMPION
know, by being

00:10:26    JEFFREY HART
surrounded by plants that they might have a conscience and, you know, and actually sort of appreciate what's around them?

00:10:37    VANESSA CHAMPION
Yeah, that's really it's a really good question, a really, really good question. We know that people being surrounded by nature and plants are more empathetic. They tend to then act a little bit more ethically. Like you say, it kind of sparks the conscience. Being surrounded by by the beauty of nature and that flourishing again does have a positive impact. Yes, I kind of, I see what you mean about the whole, yeah, imagine if they've got surrounded by all this beauty and then they're just more productive and they're kind of like more, but I think, yeah, I think again, it's the joined up effect though, isn't it? It's the joined up, you know, messaging that the people who work there are exposed to the damage they cause. And when that's combined with the beauty of nature that's around them. if they visually see, you know, like the oil spill or the destruction of the trees and all this kind of stuff on one time, and then they go back to the office and they're seeing all this beauty around them. And they're thinking, well, hang on a minute, that has to, that has to have an impact on people. I mean, the people that do these things anyway, I mean, I think their brains are just wired differently because they just can't have, they can't have the empathy, um, that um or the I don't know what I don't know I really don't know actually um you know it's also I've had conversations with um I had a conversation with one particular person who works for the oil companies and they they honestly genuinely believed that they were um trying to mitigate the destruction that they'd caused, or they were doing. And they actually, but this is what again, it's tough, isn't it? It's a really tough one. And it's hard not to feel emotional when we're talking about it, to be honest. So yeah, and there's another company that I'm I'm speaking to who are also, again, I can't mention what it is, but it's in an industry that is quite contentious and their offices are amazing and beautiful. And yet they still continue operating in the way that they do that's destructive to people there. So, yeah, it's a hard one, actually. But I suppose we can, you know, one thing that we can take, I suppose that if the staff that work in there who have to work there, because I can't find any other job, although I would probably argue that you probably can find another job. You have a choice where you work, but at least they're, because obviously they're, they're often tasked with impossible KPIs and all that sort of stuff. At least they'll, they, they won't be destroying them. They won't be destroying their staff as well as the planet. Yeah, that's a really good question, Geoffrey, and one that deserves a bit more philosophising around it. But yeah, I'm going to go away and think about that one and actually spark some debate. It's a really good question. Thank you. Oh,

00:13:50    JEFFREY HART
well, great. I mean, I suppose it sort of leads on to thinking about how biophilic design, sort of beyond just inspiring people, is there a direct crossover in sort of fighting climate change or kind of making more resilient cities, places? Do the two go hand in hand?

00:14:12    VANESSA CHAMPION
Yes, most definitely. The, I mean, yeah, definitely resilient and also regenerative cities. So yes, places that create regeneration. It's not just about, I mean, and we can't talk about sustainability anymore. I don't think we have to talk about regenerative building solutions, you know, that we leave a place better than when we left it, that we plant more trees, that we create spaces that are actually going to support us. So there's a whole thing about like when we green a city, do we create sink cities? So that's like these places for creating runoff, you know, planting trees and these kind of areas alongside sidewalks, pavements, which have, there's like a dip, but there's all planting in there that when there's a flood or when there's like excess rain, which is what we're experiencing as a result of climate change, that there's somewhere for it to go, that it doesn't just cause flooding in the city or it just runs off into the poor communities, which is what's often happened because they, you know, they're often built and the house pricing and the rent and everything else that tends to be cheaper because there's a reason for it. But these these these creating these um like bat boxes and all this kind of thing where we create more life in the city um there's definitely um a move towards that amongst designers um and um and also you know the consult biophilic design consultants where they're talking about creating you know how do we how do we create this like like a new build like these new build housing estates which we could talk about you know, we could have a whole debate about housing estates and how they're built. But, you know, they do have sustainability managers and sort of things and they are trying their best with the, again, it comes down to the bean counters, but how much are we going to get out of this real estate? But we also know through the economics of biophilic design that real estate value goes up and they can sell the houses quicker and they can sell the properties quicker if there's greenery around them. So there's an economic argument but obviously if we're creating spaces where there's properly thought out spaces for, you know, with ponds and so you've got proper sort of biodiversity, you're encouraging biodiversity, you're creating, you know, pollinating plant areas, you're encouraging children to understand it. There's so many things you can do, you know, so there's more of that happening, definitely. And there's people like Green Gage that are advising people like large companies like British Land and they're really successful. in creating roof gardens now, where there's obviously, you know, pollination and stuff on the roof and plants and also places for people to go and enjoy it as well, which again adds to that, what you said about the sort of question about, does that encourage more sustainable behaviour? It really does. So, because people get to enjoy it and there's not a disconnect. We all feel part of it. And it encourages more conversations as well, doesn't it? Where people go, oh yeah, great. And then, you know, a lot of these places as well, they have someone come and speak and talk about, you know, how to beekeep or, you know, why it's important or, you know, the plants and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, there's a lot more stuff that's going on and I'm really, I'm taking heart. I mean, when I first started this, there was hardly anything really. And just over the last, I'd say the last two years particularly, that the whole conversation about biophilic design is also shifting towards the sustainability. I mean, I'm talking, I mean, it's always been there, but I'm just saying about more and more people are understanding that it's also a sustainable solution to meet sustainable building targets. It's like the green building challenge and all these things, you know, which, which also tied in with biophilia and the groups like Living Futures Europe, like you mentioned, Martin Brown and yeah. So I think the more we do, the more we talk, the more we chat, and the more we celebrate as well, the more we see visuals of these great examples of biophilic design in the built environment, the more people will go, well, they're doing it. We need to do it. I like that solution. I'm going to do it. So yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely, um, I think I did a podcast actually with Chris Packham and he was, he was kind of saying, well, why isn't every new build. And I'm so like, I'm so with him on it, but why isn't every new build, we could do it so much better. Why doesn't every new build have like. bat boxes and bird bricks and bee nests and stuff. You can do these things. You really can. Ultimately, what is it? It's a moulded brick. Was he going to put another 20 quid on the price of a property. I mean, ultimately, that's all it is, is materials, isn't it? And just time, what, 100 pounds per brick, but ultimately it's going to make a massive, you know, anyway, I don't know. So I'm just trying to analyze how much it's going to cost them. But, you know, if you've got, if it's done at scale, then it's not going to cost that much. So, yeah. Anyway, yeah.

00:19:26    JEFFREY HART
There has to be that want, doesn't there?

00:19:28    VANESSA CHAMPION
Yeah, it does. And it comes down to, it comes down to the consumer, comes down to consumer demanding, you know, something different. But also people don't understand that they have a choice as well. They don't, they don't know what they need until they need it until they, till they know what it is, if you know what I mean, which is why it's important to share the love, like stuff like you're doing here. It's really important. The podcast you're doing is so important because the more people understand and learn and get inspired by the more, they'll have more conversations elsewhere. And then that will have a knock on effect down the supermarket and everywhere else that they might go. And it's again, it's important to keep making sure that we're all at the table where everybody is at the table to talk and discuss and to

00:20:11    JEFFREY HART
plan and to design better. Brilliant. Yes. Couldn't agree more. I wanted to ask you if you had any Really great project examples that people could go and maybe have a look at or that you could maybe just sort of discuss. Things that were sort of exciting in the biophilic design world.

00:20:32    VANESSA CHAMPION
Yeah, well, one of them was actually done in a workplace. It's by a company in New Zealand called Outside In, and it does what it says on the tin, it brings the outside in. They're a landscape company. They won the Biophilic Design Awards in 2022. It's how come I knew about it actually, because I was a judge on the awards, but I featured it in the workplace issue. Basically, it was a law company and the owner of the legal company in New Zealand, she took herself off into New Zealand. She was walking, she was in the countryside, it was like, you know, amazing landscapes. If anyone's been to New Zealand, you know, the rocks and the air and the wildness. and the planting and the earth and she came back to her office after she'd sort of done her like trekking and she thought well hang on this is horrible but you know the office is awful and so she had the you know the foresight to think how can we create that what I've just felt in here So she reached out to a couple of designers and the one that won the contract then appointed Outside In to be the landscaper, the interior landscaper. And you have to look at it. So again, I did, I did actually did a podcast with him. So you can go to the Journal of Bifurcated Design podcast page and look at or just Google Outside In. But they created this, all I can say is it's a landscaped office. There's the curving lines, all the plantings against the windows, obviously because no plant would survive if it's in, you know, if it's in the darkness. And again, that's also why I think, why the hell do we put people in, you know, actually inside and interiors in buildings? Whereas we think, oh no, the plants don't flourish, but people are okay. So, but this whole landscape area, there's beautiful trees, there's, so which, because it's against the window, if you imagine this building, there's like a big hole in the center where the glass goes, it's a bit like a donut, it's like a square donut, if you want, so there's light going all the way through the center. So there's lots of internal, there's lots of walls that have got bringing lots of natural light. But the plants, of course, then, as the light comes in, will create this dappled shade, which is what we talk about, this non-rhythmic sensory stimuli in biophilic design, which is this natural stuff where the sort of dappled diffusion of light comes through. And you've got this non-rhythmic movement, so there's sort of the randomization of leaves as well. But it's beautifully done. And you've got the benefit as well of the smell of the earth. We know that the earth of plants cleans air. And that's, I didn't even mention that. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That's like a major, major thing. But the purification of air with plants in a space is so, so, so, so, so important. And that helps our cognitive function as well. It helps our brains. gets oxygen down us obviously we're breathing carbon dioxide out and even with the best HVAC system it still leaves but that's why we're tired when we're in a workplace at the end of the day we're like you know, if we're like super tired, because the air quality is rubbish. So we need more plants in the office to improve the air quality, let alone acting as natural acoustic barriers if we can put it in the right places. But this outside in is beautiful. It's really, really worth looking at. There's lots of natural wood in the space. There's like little zodes. And what I really love about it, and again, you asked me earlier on, and I think I answered properly, You asked about something that isn't done a lot, you know, one of these kind of unusual kind of patterns of bifurcation. It's about undulation. It's about this kind of appropriation. I've forgotten the word. Anyway, but it's about how Yeah, it's about how landscape, the space moves up and down. So if you think about when you go out in nature, unless you're on an asphalt pathway, which is all completely flat, it's not flat. So you have to step over, you know, stones and do you know what I mean? And you go up and down slightly, the land isn't completely flat. So it's about replicating that in the workplace. And they've done exactly that in this space as well. So again, through zoning and the, the actual landscaping of the interior spaces of the plants at different heights and things. It's a fantastic example. It sounds

00:25:05    JEFFREY HART
fantastic. I think the thing that's really jumped out at me there is that I've never heard the title interior landscaper before. And I mean, it seems so obvious now you've said it. That's exactly what we need.

00:25:24    VANESSA CHAMPION
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also a trend. So the traditional plant companies, while some of them still just put pot plants in and it's just like, I'm just putting some pot plants in and we're going to manage that for you. There's a whole trend, which is very welcome, where people are thinking differently. They're hanging baskets and hanging plants down stairwells. There's such a trend for living walls as well. Daniel Bell is a great example to look at. He uses recycled clothing in his living walls and he doesn't use soil so the plants themselves actually start drilling their little feet into the fabric of these recycled felt And he just literally staples it in. I go and did a podcast with him over Zoom actually. And he's just, he goes, hang on a minute, I'm just gonna show you how I do it. And he literally just stapled these plants in. And it's so low tech, but he's done amazing, done it all around London, in like, you know, Kings Road, everywhere. But it's, yeah, they're phenomenal. And what he does as well, because he's such an artist, he's such a, you know, his spirit is so like connected to the earth and he's pushing boundaries all the time. So he puts even like trees, like mini trees in these living walls. It's so out there, but so beautiful and so sustainable. And they all thrive and, you know, they all live so, you know, the plants are really, like, successful. Different textures, juniper. So there's different smells, different, like, so baby's tears, all that kind of thing. So different leaf shapes. colours and smells and flowers and it's beautiful, it's so flamboyant, it doesn't have to just be green, it doesn't have to be just one type of plant, it can be so much better. So, but yeah, so just sorry going back again, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but the whole interior landscaping kind of concept is really is really coming into its own right now, I think. I do just want to mention one more example, if that's okay. Yeah, of course. And that's the Kutek Puat Hospital in Singapore. That's KH If people haven't seen it, as an example of how we should be designing biophilic-designed hospitals, it's definitely one to look at. We have featured it actually in the healthcare issue of the Journal of Biophilic Design. uh three um but oh my word um there's lots of visuals in there actually but there there's the walkways have got planting it's like walking through a jungle but like a controlled jungle so it feels safe it's a bit of uh you know what we'd call sort of mystery and risk and peril if you want um in in biophilic design but you're You're encased and there's beautiful trees like the maples which obviously change in the different seasons. There's windows that look out onto nature. in the wards themselves so they've created like these little ashtrays if you want that sit on the outside of the building so people inside the wards have a view of leaves and greenery which frame their outlook onto and obviously it's like a you know it's a high-rise building so as they're looking out onto you know, onto the sky or wherever it is, they've got like little plants around them. And of course, the air quality is fantastic. There's a water feature, you know, there's a load of water that's outside. So obviously the air that filters into the space and around it is really, you know, it's clear, it's more purified as it were. But then it's just beautiful to look. There's a smell from scented plants. You've got the sound of falling water as well. And of course you have the visual access to greenery and water. It's like a sort of rainforest-like, and there's obviously biodiversity as well, there's plants and birds and butterflies and insects and things, so I think it encourages that community, what I was talking about, the sociability, this kind of social aspect of biophilic design, of biophilia, this connection to life. by creating these community spaces, these public spaces, they're like mini parks for people to come to. Yeah, it's just, it was CPG consultants who created it. And it's just really, it just sort of helps medical staff and recovery of patients. And it's just like, yeah, if I, if ever I, well, if ever I get sick, I want to be there. I want to be in that hospital. I definitely don't want to be in one in the UK. So, yeah. That

00:30:18    JEFFREY HART
sounds absolutely delightful. I wanted to ask you, you said a word back in when you were talking about the previous project that I think it Well, you said there's a trend of, you know, doing this a particular way. What would you say to people that maybe think that biophilic design is itself a trend, like that we're going to, you know, this will be yesterday's sort of news at some point

00:30:50    VANESSA CHAMPION
in the future? I think, I think, I mean, whether it will be, I don't know. But I think right at the moment, it is kind of, it's joining up, so biophilic design is really joining up all the different elements. It's joining up, you know, sustainable design, it's eco building, vernacular building, wellbeing, health and wellbeing, mental health design. It's really, it's joining all those things up. So it's like an overarching, as well as it's like the, I don't know, it's like, the granddaddy of all the other trends, if you want, or all the other labels. And I suppose biophilic design, because there's using that term, there's so much evidence that's kind of being assigned to it and to the term. It's really useful for other design practices to kind of say, well, look, this is actually part of biophilic design. It's actually this inherent need for us to be connected to nature. It's like everything, we're all doing the same thing. We're all creating spaces and places for people and planet. And biophilic design is really just the overarching term for all of that. Whether it will come and go, who knows? I think the fact that it's being embraced more on design courses, university courses, It's actually becoming, it's actually in policy in the government now. There's more lobbyists using the term biophilic design. I suppose it's kind of like using a, I don't know, a joined up term for something that marries everything together, if you know what I mean. And it's not like us and them, it's not you and me, it's actually the whole thing. It's like an ecosystem in itself that sort of biophilic design sits, it's just a word, it's just the term really. And everything else cascades kind of below it, if you know what I mean, and sort of feeds into it. When I say below it, I don't mean that in like it's under it. I mean, it's like, boy, it's like, it's like the root of biophilic design so it's just like that's the term but everything that everybody else is doing in sustainability and well-being design and everything else all feeds in to yeah I suppose it's like a tree This is now getting really conceptual, but like biophilic design is like the tree and all the design practices are like the mycelium, which are like doing all this amazing, brilliant stuff. But biophilic design is like a term that, I don't know, it's like an overarching term that like bean counters and government and businesses and everybody can kind of get and understand. I don't think it's going to go. I hope it isn't going to go. If it does, I hope it's replaced with something equally amazing. And maybe ultimately the dream would be that we don't need these terms. We don't need sustainable building. We don't need eco building. We don't need biophilic design. It just is. We just design how we're supposed to design. And that's it. Maybe that's it. Maybe that would be the ultimate. That's

00:34:31    JEFFREY HART
the ultimate. Yeah. We'll just call it building. Call

00:34:34    VANESSA CHAMPION
it designing. Exactly. Because we're building better. We're just building the way we should be bloody building in the first place. So yeah, there we go. There's a dream. There's a dream. We don't need the terms at all. Yeah. Make us

00:34:47    JEFFREY HART
redundant. Well,

00:34:48    VANESSA CHAMPION
yeah, because we'd be doing it, but we won't be redundant really. We'll be flourishing because they'll need us because we're the ones who

00:34:57    JEFFREY HART
know what we're doing. That's true. So I wanted to finish. We've obviously mentioned the journal quite a lot. I wanted to talk about the journal. Oh, it's fantastic. It's so chocked full of, you know, all of the different avenues. I particularly like the sort of research backed section because I think that's, for me, that's really sort of what makes biophilic design stand out is that it is It is backed up, um, with science. Um, but, um, could you tell us a little bit about, uh, maybe some of the topics that you've covered and some that you're

00:35:35    VANESSA CHAMPION
going to in the future? Um, so every issue has a different theme. Um, we've had healthcare, workplace, home, cities, creativity, blue mind. The next one coming out is education and then there's well-being and neurodiversity and environment and everything else. But that's at the front of each issue. And then, as you said, Geoffrey, thanks for those nice words. But there's a science behind biophilic design. And as I mentioned, Dr. Stanley Augustine is our science editor. So she kind of trawls and writes about biophilia and there's loads of evidence and there's other psychologists or scientists or researchers that write about why we need it from an acoustic point of view and everything else. Then there's a section on well-being as well. So that talks about why we need nature for our mental health, as well as like, you know, as I said, neurodiversity and air quality, all different aspects actually of why biophilic design is really good for us, about that innate connection. We also talk a bit about naturopathy, so about how plants can help us heal. So it's really like that and just really, really, really drilling down into that innate connection that we have with nature and that we've always had with nature that we've forgotten about. I'm just the whole point of putting it in is really just to resurrect that interest and resurrect that sort of, oh my goodness, yeah, exactly. Even had a doctor from Harley Street who wrote about that connection and why we need that connection to nature. There's also a section on plants, as you'd expect, but we have people like Plants at Work who write for us each month and celebrate one particular plant and how not to kill it. But then there's examples as well of case studies of how it's been used in, whether it's healthcare or whatever the different situation is, what a different theme of the journal is. There's also the environment, people and planet section, where we talk about things actually like, for instance, in the healthcare one, we talk about the NHS forest, which is a project or a programme that the NHS work with. these sort of groups that build, you know, plant forests near, and trees near the hospitals. So it's a community thing, but it also means that people on their walk to the, or in their journey to the hospital have a better space and place to kind of experience. Right to roam, that kind of thing, why we need to have access to land, why it's important to us. And, you know, there's also political elements in there. I'm not going to lie. We do have a diplomat that writes for us in each issue as well. He's a leading environmentalist, Alexander Verbeek. He always writes something about the state of the nation, as it were, the state of the world. And then there's always a section at the end, because I think it's really important about biophilic cities, why we design cities for the health of people as well as the planet. You know, green space, tiny forests, that kind of stuff. I did want to mention one thing that's really good is the Miyawaki method. So if people are thinking about building a little forest or something, or they've got a little area, you can put a mini forest and it's... Miyawaki was a Japanese But he studied, he said, hang on a minute, why are we planting trees like spaced out like this? And his method is actually looking at how nature, how nature designs forests, which is, how does nature design forests? Well, they have like seeds everywhere and it's really dense planting. and then it's not like survival of the fittest but it means that they grow and they nurture each other so that they need less water so it's sustainable. Stuff like that we feature in the journal so it's to inspire people as well as to connect people so anyone who's doing good we're always open to ideas and suggestions if people's got a great someone's got a bit good a great project or have a design method that fits the biophilic thing is green is natural and connects us to nature in some way then I'm always open for that too but Yeah, so the ones coming up, as I said, it's one on education, some really great examples in there about how designing schools with like places for kids to play outside. I need to encourage them to to create outdoor classrooms. so that people are outside having their lessons as well and you know even if it's raining you create like spaces for them to be so that they're sheltered it's like it's phenomenal it gives these kids like we know that it improves their scores um having wood desks makes them add up better than than having plastic desks stuff like that you know it's like come on people So that's what I'm doing. And then we've got the conference first week of November 2024 as well. So we'll be pulling everybody together. As I said, it's not us and them. It's everybody. It's one big family of people doing good. So Jeffrey, you're coming. And you're going to speak, I've decided,

00:41:02    JEFFREY HART
so there

00:41:03    VANESSA CHAMPION
we go. You

00:41:04    JEFFREY HART
try and keep me away, that's brilliant. Yeah, it's interesting, like you were saying about the education. We're just starting a craft school here in the woods and we've been talking about you know, how we, we've been talking about it in a sort of marketing way, actually, but, you know, how do we, uh, tell people about these courses and, and sort of sell all of the benefits that they're really getting because, you know, they might be coming to carve a spoon or, you know, uh, do, do something, you know, physical and hands-on, but. They're also spending time in the woods and, you know, the bird song and the leaves in the trees, uh, you know, rustling in the trees and, you know, there's this whole extra layer of thing they're getting from it that actually is quite easy to forget and just be

00:41:56    VANESSA CHAMPION
quite mechanical

00:41:56    JEFFREY HART
and say, you know, you'll chop a bit of wood up. Yeah. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. So you're

00:42:02    VANESSA CHAMPION
really you want to you're getting more kids to come along. Is it for adults as well? Because it's the carving experience would be something I'd like to do.

00:42:13    JEFFREY HART
Predominantly adults, actually. There's going to be in the future, a sort of forest school element to it. Particularly where we want to get to is actually providing a space for the kind of kids on their last chance from school, you know, kind of the sort of air quotes, unruly ones, but the ones who really just don't thrive in that pretty stuffy, horrible classroom session setting. So, yeah, give them all of the benefits of the outside and running around with a stick and feeling all of those benefits.

00:42:53    VANESSA CHAMPION
Yeah, absolutely. I love doing that. I love that. I love being outside and doing something, you know, whether it's, you know, foraging, which I don't do very well, but so I don't eat anything I've collected just in case. But making stuff outside, you know, collecting leaves and tying them to a thing that creates a mobile and just stuff. It's just lovely to be outside and touching nature and touching this beautiful planet that we share, you know, we're sharing our lives with. I think it's

00:43:25    JEFFREY HART
a beautiful thing. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the podcast as well? Or I guess sort of wanted to finish with just, you know, where can people find more books, podcasts, websites, you know,

00:43:40    VANESSA CHAMPION
Okay, lovely, thanks. Yeah, thanks. So if people want to find out a little bit more, they can go to the journal of biophilicdesign.com. You can also find us on Spotify, Audible, YouTube, all the things Stitcher and all the other ones, iTunes, Google, Google this, that, and the other. But if you go to our website, there's loads of resources on there. As I said, there's also an iJournal where you can create your own research journal. on the Space Doctors, it's a kind of our sister company. So you go to the science behind biophilic design on the top tab of our website, and then you can just put your, you know, whatever you're trying to search in there, like, you know, as I said, like curves, and it will create your own research journal as a result of that. But then there's the conference as well. um so there's um please sign up for for notifications it's going to be first first week of november 2024 um it'll be in london the first one um and there's lots of people on british institute of interior designers and wildlife trust and the nhs and and um yeah just some people doing amazing amazing stuff so it's kind of bridging research and best practice. So again, so we're not siloed, so we're all together, we can all be in the room together. I'm hoping to get some MPs in there as well, which will be quite an interesting one. And then obviously the journal itself, you can buy on Amazon, but don't buy on there because it does cost a fortune because that's how much it costs to print, unfortunately, with them. But you can buy it on our website, thejournalofbiophilicdesign.com. Go to the general by foot design tab or our shop tab and you can buy a hard copy which is beautiful it's all eco-friendly and and natural inks and and stuff and it's really big it's about a centimeter thick because it's hard to see it online um it's beautiful or you can buy um just a just an ebook uh version it's on kindle as well um so if it's on there you can get it with your kindle subscription So yeah, thank you so much, Jeffrey. Thanks for your support. Thanks for inviting me on. I really, really appreciate it. And, you know, I value everything that you're doing and the inspiration that you're you're giving people with your podcast and also the work you're doing, too. So so brilliant. So hats off to

00:45:59    JEFFREY HART
you. Oh, well. Very much right back at you. I've previously been reading the online, not the online, the PDF edition of the journal, and I've just decided I'm going to buy a whole load of the printed ones and have them on my coffee table. Oh, thank you. They are lovely.

00:46:17    VANESSA CHAMPION
They are lovely. I've done it deliberately, so it's a biophilic experience with all leaves and trees and things on the edge of pages so people are touching. touching the plants, and I've had the feedback where people have said, well I only normally read like 10, 20 pages if you're lucky, but I've read 80 pages, you know, outright.

00:46:53    JEFFREY HART
Oh my goodness, thank you so much Vanessa for talking to me. I've genuinely not felt this connected and part of something really big and important for a long time. I've been feeling actually quite quite outside of all of that. So it's really fantastic to speak to someone like Vanessa. who is gathering in all these people and kind of giving them a home and a focus. I'm such a big fan of what she's doing on all fronts and I urge you to get involved and yeah, read the journal, listen to the podcast, go to the conference, you might even see me there. Yeah, such good things. So this episode I have put some links. We start with Bjorn Beyer. I knew I recognised that name. It's Beyer Natural Building. He is to come along to the Bristol Spoon Club. Um, hello, Bjorn, I hope you're listening. Sorry, I didn't recognize your name necessarily at first. A link to the Space Doctors, to my mycelium panels. There's a link to Zoom Regenerative, which is a lovely gathering of, of minds. Green Gauge Environmental Consultants, the Green Building Challenge. We've talked about that on this podcast. Maybe have a search on the website if you want to see that. There is links to example projects that were discussed. The Outside In project, goodness me, you've got to go look at that. That is so gorgeous. Yeah, such a delightful space. Definitely look at that. And then the Kutek Hospital, yeah, links to that as well. Daniel Bell, Living Wall, link to his website, the NHS Forest, the Right to Roam campaign. I've also put a link to the podcast with Nick Hayes that we did for this podcast way back when the Right to Roam project was maybe not even started yet. And there's also a link to the Miyawaki Forest. So that is it from me, if you have enjoyed this podcast then please do subscribe, head back through, listen to all the episodes, let me know what you think. If you really like it then support the podcast through Patreon, patreon.com forward slash building sustainability, that would be really appreciated, it does take quite a long time and quite a lot of effort. to make this podcast and has not inconsiderable running costs. So yeah, your support would be really, really appreciated. And if you go for the higher level, I will carve you a spoon. I think that's it. Oh yes, share the episode. I nearly always forget that. If you've got this far, then you are clearly part of the A-team. Really cement your place. That's a terrible term. really secure your place in the A-team by sharing this to all your friends. Tag me in it on either Geoffrey The Natural Builder or Building Sustainability Podcast. And it will make me really happy. Okay, everybody. Until next time, all the best.