Designing the Future: Creativity and Innovation in Sustainability - Helen Gordon - BS103

Helen Gordon: 1:54

We're newly entering our tenth year of business now, and we have been predominantly until COVID doing a lot of design and build refurbishment jobs on period houses. Yeah. We were predominantly working a lot where we were offering a turkey solution for builders where we'd be working from reconfiguring interiors, putting lots more on suites in, thinking about the needs of the person when we were doing that, but very much sort of thinking in terms of the budget, obviously, that the client had but offering high end bills for young professionals from anything from, you know, full through the interiors where we'd be supplying, you know, down to wine glasses so that they could move in. But as we we were never really sort of very always conscious about sustainability and the clients that we are working with never really have that in mind. So we were sort of getting to the point where we were, you know, we're also working with domestic clients on more sort of their own houses, high end sort of interiors, this kind of thing. But it was never it was never something that people are thinking about. And then COVID struck and we just sort of had time to breathe a bit. It was a very difficult time as well because we had jobs that we were doing for domestic, actually residential clients that went on hold. And I just started going down a minefield really into looking into what does carbon mean? What is, you know, what what does it all mean? And just decided that we just had to change where we were going with our business and work on Yeah. Just work on more sustainable things going forward because we're you know, on our jobs, we were like contributing to about eight to ten skips per job. We were doing around sixty five refurbishing all during that time and it contributed to about eight hundred and forty tons of of waste, you know. So you've got to really think about you know, what you're doing when you've got all these skips going back and forth and waste. So we decided to go back to our roots almost and work more on just the interior side, not just the build side, the whole build side because my co founder started off as a wood turner, actually, in craft way back. And we got very much interested in the circular economy. It's I think we might talk about a bit later as well and how you almost need to own the whole space in order for it to work. So we set up a workshop where we're now we have the design plus the the workshop and we're looking more interior solutions for for builds instead now. And, yeah, that's where we're going. Great. Going forward, building sustainable kitchens, lots of different things like that.

Jeffrey Hart: 5:02

It sounds like you've had a a shift in in core values. How would you describe your core values now?

Helen Gordon: 5:07

Yeah. I mean, I think to be truly honest, I think that's the only way to get somewhere as a business because you're only ever sort of putting a sticking plaster over things. Otherwise, we've become a purposeful business. I mean, we always were, but we've we've really thought almost inside out what does that mean and how do we translate that and tell our customer that. And it's sort of absolutely putting I don't really like the worst sustainability, and I think that's something we might cover as well. But -- Mhmm. -- it's almost that. And nature becomes center to what we do. And we've always cared, as I mentioned earlier, even though perhaps our client weren't wasn't thinking about who lived in the space. We always were. And so it's about we've really thought about well, it's about the well-being. It's the person in the space that we're providing for, but it's also this bigger picture of the planet. So really our purpose now comes back to what the well-being of purpose and planet because without each other, I don't think we can continue for much longer. And our well-being comes down to nature in so many ways. So we've got to interlink a bit more and think about how we go forward. So our message comes from that now and that's, you know, everything is aligned to that.

Jeffrey Hart: 6:33

Yes. There's no point having a beautiful caring home space when the rest of the world's on fire in in ecological disaster.

Helen Gordon: 6:41

Yeah. And we're just chucking up buildings, not thinking about all the biodiversity that may be there now. And -- Mhmm. -- you know, oh, well, never mind. It's a nice house. And, you know, not having any windows in it. So the people then sort of going a bit mad because they can't see light or nature or anything out of them. It's Yeah. It's all, you know yeah. We have to think about all of it.

Jeffrey Hart: 7:05

Has it been difficult to to sort of change your clients, I guess? Because you've stated that you'd only take on sustainable or regenerative projects. But then, you know, has it been difficult to find those clients that had that mindset?

Helen Gordon: 7:24

Yes. I mean, it's sort of and there is a little bit of a compromise for example, we some people have come to us because we're local or our reputation and that is part of it as well. It's it's about having a resilient local sort of people that you economy again and working with those people and building something rather than sort of not thinking about that anymore. So it is it's it's been but I think this is why it's important to get your message right first of all because it's not necessarily about, you know, it could be so you might get less leads but those leads are completely aligned with you and where you want to go. So you're creating more impact rather than ten or fifteen leads that make you unhappy You can't see doing things that you don't want to do. So yes, we've taken a we've taken a big Yeah. Our money has, our turnover has gone down, but we are sort of starting to find that people are now coming more to us. And being attracted to us because of what we do. I mean, luckily, not luckily, but thank goodness. Things are, you know, seem to be still a bit slow, but things are going the right direction. So we are starting to attract more like minded people now. But as I said, for example, this project that we worked on in Oxfordshire, which was about the local value, sort of quality, people that we are in business. He also interestingly then did have a little bit of a sustainability mindset. So there was different things that he was open to working with then in his house. So we worked on a a fat cottage that, you know, from from him living there, he obviously had he wasn't living in a new building. He was living in this very old house where he he was sort of thinking, okay. Well, I want some of this to stay. I don't wanna obviously modernize this, but displace was old and pokey and small and it wasn't very communal. He's got three children and he needed it to sort of he wanted to spend more time in it. He found that he wasn't spending much time in it. It needed to be updated. So we were brought in to sort of completely reconfigure that place, but as we were going through it, we were then sort of gently saying, well, have you thought because you wanted a new kitchen in it as well, have you thought about the materials that we used for that kitchen and how perhaps they could be a bit more sustainable. They could be there's a lot of polluting materials that used as well in builds. And, you know, have you thought about using these and you're very much open to whatever suggestions we made? Going okay. That makes sense. Here, I'll do that. So for example, you know, we used a more breathable plaster on the walls because that's better for for the walls to breathe in the future because it's all mine walls. We used, again, the paints on top of low VOCs, which are natural paints. Edward Balmer, for example. We he's a very natural, you know, great manufacturer. And then our actual kitchens or cells, we're building, we're using glue less construction in them, so that we're thinking about we purposely in the future. And, you know, we we found these old barn doors in Oxfordshire that had come from another job in Oxfordshire and said, What do you think of these? Because he'd said he wanted some kind of wood to, you know, be used throughout to mirror the old beams and that kind of thing in the house. And he's got lots of sort of old bits of wood. And so we found these beautiful doors absolutely stunning. And so, well, we could make countertops out of these. We could do shelves. We could make a dining table. We could do all kinds of things with the he said, great. Yes. Let's do this. And, yeah, so we've sort of reused and and re recycled bits of timber that may well have just stayed doing nothing for years into something beautiful and created legacy products put the value of his house up as well with what we've done. So, you know, little examples like that, used brass fittings for lights because you can recycle brass in the future. Just really, you know, he wanted a new sofa for example, on the interior side of things as well, rather than buying a new one, educating about what goes into the sofa, using a local upholsterer with natural, you know, things inside it to to reapp bolster it rather than a horrible bits of foam that give off nasty chemicals. So he's got this beautiful old French vintage sofa now in his in his home. Yes.

Jeffrey Hart: 12:26

I don't think that's built to last rather than I think that's you know, got a a ten year lifespan.

Helen Gordon: 12:31

Exactly. And he can hand, yeah, hand it onto his children or whatever he wants to do with it.

Jeffrey Hart: 12:36

Yeah. Lovely. So you mentioned that the big old doors. Where where are you finding materials like that?

Helen Gordon: 12:43

Well, this was a reclamation site actually. We I mean, some of the time, for example, we when on our past build jobs, we've kept We all on jobs now. We we sort of the same to the architect or whoever. Can you keep the scaffolding boards and can you keep the the floorboards because we can reuse them for projects. They, you know, they shouldn't just be sent away to landfill or burned. So this profound a reclamation yard, but for example, we did a waste bench that was a commission for Glastonbury Festival. And this was built to sort of really sort of show how the beauty of using natural materials and how things that you think, you know, should be thrown away. Actually, why you can make them into beautiful things. So we we made this I don't know. It's been classed to something like how to game of Thrones, but it's this big sort of big throne, almost. That the idea was because it was just after COVID, it was the first festival that they put back on. So about this idea of bringing people together on a bench to talk and maybe they could talk about waste or be wasted. Both.

Jeffrey Hart: 13:58

Yeah. Both.

Helen Gordon: 13:59

Yeah. But so it was, you know, more than just having one person out on a chair. It was about allowing two or three people to sit on there and sort of have this space. And in the end, they were like, it it then went to King's cross for also something called planted, which is a talks festival that happens there. And I've got pictures of children climbing over it and sort of it was very much, you know, part of the space and used, which is what it was designed for, and a talking point.

Jeffrey Hart: 14:28

So

Helen Gordon: 14:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 14:29

That's brilliant. They planted, that's Oliver Heath, isn't it?

Helen Gordon: 14:32

Yes. Yes. Who I all them also on the interiors to declare steel and group with Oliver?

Jeffrey Hart: 14:38

Great.

Helen Gordon: 14:38

So Yeah. So it's gone.

Jeffrey Hart: 14:41

Well, I just went to the most recent planted.

Helen Gordon: 14:44

Okay.

Jeffrey Hart: 14:44

Where that was now? Somewhere in the high group.

Helen Gordon: 14:46

Yes. The world should. Yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 14:49

Yes. Very good. I've I'm a big fan of of Ola's work. I mean, all the the bioaffiliate stuff is I mean, it's what I'm all about. So

Helen Gordon: 14:57

Absolutely. And that's part of what we do as well. And, yeah, I mean, he's he's really making great strides in that area. So Yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 15:05

Brilliant. Pull you back slightly onto when you were writing about the the cottage in Oxford. One of the things that really kind of maybe even the reason I wanted to talk to you most. You said the phrase, you wanted to celebrate the imperfections of timber. And use your bow tie fixings and things like that. That, I mean, that just makes my heart sing. That I think, yeah, the to get away from that strive for perfect clean-cut, you know, everything emaculate and actually, you know, celebrate the life that our products had or the, you know, or how it was as a tree or all of those kind of things.

Helen Gordon: 15:47

Yeah. Exactly. And I think, for me, originally, it's come from my fascination in Japanese far east and sort of craft and, you know, looked at the slow way that they've got this amazing sort of craft still going over there, you know, the way they die things, the way they just will take weeks to understand about what doing one bit. And the idea of Kintsugi, where you're you're celebrating the imperfections over ceramic where you're putting the you know, there could be a cut, a break, and you're putting gold, a gold leaf up it to to sort of highlight, look, it's it's broken, but doesn't this look beautiful? Or and it sort of went from there really because of this And we just got, like, why? We've got these beautiful things in it. Why then just sort of, you know, sound it and make it into a square. No. Let's let's celebrate what what's there. Let let's work with it rather than changing it. And I think that's really important.

Jeffrey Hart: 16:53

Brilliant. I love it. How do you choose so this is a a thing that I've been talking about quite a lot recently, which is if you sort of look at sustainability or regenerative, there are, yeah, there are lots of different facets to what makes a thing you're either good or bad. And some products or some materials can be very, very good in one area, very, very bad in another. Product I use quite a lot is foam glass, which is an insulation. Great for going underground. It's recycled. But so, you know, it ticks loads of boxes, but it is a very high carbon creation material. So how do you find that balance in finding the best material when kind of everything loses out in in some aspects.

Helen Gordon: 17:43

I think it's really it's a really tricky hard time to do that at the moment because it's almost there's a couple of platforms that have come out, which also which so they have lots of criteria, for example, first planet and twenty fifty materials. And particular first Ponex I've had in-depth conversations with the woman that set this up where, you know, you're sort of ticking for carbon, you're ticking for you're looking at the ethical side of it where it's come from the science behind it, the repurability, But there's so many companies you still you still don't know exactly what they're doing at the moment. So you almost have to judge it yourself in a lot of ways or if there's something on those platforms, you can use those. So things that we do at the moment is almost So it's looking if they've got an environmental product declaration in EPD and absolutely scrutinizing that to see how the product's being made where it's come from. It's it's looking at the whole sort of credentials of the company as well and trying to understand if they say they're cradle to cradle products. Great. It looks like they're trying to sort of think about the whole sort of carbon side of it. The whole materials, everything because they're thinking about the usability in the future. But yeah, it's sort of looking at sort of standards that are out there already and sort of trying to make a judgment really because I don't believe it's just about It's not just about carbon. It's about the toxins that are in something because we spend ninety percent of our time indoors. So we should be thinking about what we're breathing in, you know, how we're gonna make our life better for ourselves as well. For example, we're technology. So, yeah, it's it's looking at a lot of criteria and trying to sort of balance it and understand what's gonna be best for our job. So it's yeah, traceability, reuseability, renewability. And also, for example, like when we're building our kitchens, So you start looking and taking part everything. And even the glue that you you're putting it together with once it's contaminated that material, you can't then reuse the material. So is there a glue out there that's more bio? I mean, you know, they're they're still inventing things at the moment. It could be fifty percent it might not be a hundred, but it's also sort of saying being honest about it. So, well, this is where we are on our journey. This is what we've done so far. These are the best that we can find. But hey, if you can find something better and let us know, but this is where we're at. And I think that's important.

Jeffrey Hart: 20:32

An honest evaluation of of where things weren't as good as they could be in the hope that that they will be better.

Helen Gordon: 20:39

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 20:41

You touched a little bit on the the ethics there. Mhmm. So ethics of materials sort of where they're coming from, whether I guess, you know, how they're being mined, what sort of labor and things like that. You you told me a story about how you'd actually So I've encountered the the ethics in China in a in a previous job.

Helen Gordon: 21:02

Yes. Why I used to be I mean, and this is why this has also brought me to where we are in the business the past few years is I was a retail buyer for ten years, working for big companies, like House of Fraser as a a homewares buyer. So I was buying things anything from Christmas decorations through to tableware, to garden, and having to go out to India, China, lot in Taiwan, lots of places like that to to source and product developed with factories out there. And it was always sort of the thing, you know, to really understand your supply chain to go to these places. So Yeah. You know, I I was sort of always very mindful of because we've always got quality things in place. We wouldn't just be working with anybody, but it was still really when you go there is the only when you really see what's going on or, you know, and it's all fine, but it's not. So for example, in a, you know, in a factory in China, you realize that those people are just working all year for us. Making Christmas direct decorations, for example. There's only two weeks of the year that there not seeing their family. They're very much more conscious cultures from all over China. They don't look particularly happy, and they don't even celebrate Christmas like we do. I mean, lights go off in the dormitory at nine o'clock at night, you know. And they're on this compound. That's their life. Making all these consuming products for us that we bring over in containers. So we might took them away the next day, you know, seeing rivers that have turned different colors because of the guys that have been used you know, just and, you know, and then when you're in India and you see the fragility of the supply chain sort of going out from Delhi up to the industrial drill zone and there's, you know, an accident and a horse and carts being knocked over. And actually, that horse and cart is bringing your stock down to the port to bring over in a container to the UK and you get, oh, that's why it's late. It's literally because the horse and car has blocked the road And then they've got this massive clearing up job. I mean, it's so fragile, the supply chain still, you know. And we're just here demanding, consuming, consuming, we want it quicker, quicker, better, cheaper. Just can't carry on like that.

Jeffrey Hart: 23:28

Mhmm. So I almost said great then, but I meant great as in. That's a lovely point rather than that's a great thing. So transparent supply chains is a thing that is I think you've talked about in terms of being a good as as you someone who's looking to to maybe buy a product or or sort of use a service, how do you look into that transparent supply chain? And what's kind of a red flag for, you know, don't use these people?

Helen Gordon: 24:04

Well, again, I think things are really advancing in need to advance further in this area as we go forward the next few years. But at the minute, for example, like I'm not very keen on sort of mined product because I'm yeah. I'll look in, you know, I'll look into, say, a marble top or whatever because these things will run out eventually. When you start looking into it, I mean, I'm almost my worst enemy by saying that because I have a mobile phone. Some of the stuff we're not totally sure about how that's being mined at the moment. But I think it's it's just really Yeah. Thinking about how something's been made and that the ultimate sort of thing really is to use waste or bio materials that have been made from from waste or good nothing to do with fossil fuels, really. And that's a sort of way of doing it. So in the future, you know, they're looking at sort of bringing in things like material passports where, you know, you'll be able to trace back where something's come from and, you know, what it's made from basically. And if you say wanna sell it back in the future, share or do something with it, you'll be it'll have its its all its, you know, information held within it, almost given a sort of stamp,

Jeffrey Hart: 25:27

you

Helen Gordon: 25:27

know, like a barcode -- Mhmm. -- which is amazing. And also, life cycle analysis is something that is going to, well, I hope become mandatory for products as well where a customer will be able to look at something and understand, okay, well, this has come from a mine in, I don't know, China. And, you know, and then it sort of being brought across by container. You can see how much carbon's been used for it. And then what are the the materials and it's then being joined with? And where is it be made in the UK? And how long is it gonna last? And all this kind of thing, I think absolutely complete, transparent, transparency then on the product -- Mhmm. -- for the for the customer. Because I think, at the moment, things have been taken away so much and they don't think where things come from. There needs to be this whole relearning exercise, which is why we wanted to have our workshop and showroom and design office altogether so that people can come and they can actually see people physically making the product and it's not it's not just arrived magically to them. They can see it's it's really being produced by someone locally here and you're contributing towards the employee workforce by -- Mhmm. -- buying this product as well. Think there's been so much detachment to things. We've got to reverse it and bring it back the other way.

Jeffrey Hart: 26:55

Well, I suppose that the whole supply chain thing becomes easier, the more localized these services are. You've spoken about local a few times. Yeah. So how how are you sort of developing that that local?

Helen Gordon: 27:12

Well, still early days at the moment. I mean, obviously, I think it's really hard to shift supply chains at the minute because a lot of stuff we don't make anymore here were more of a service based economy in the UK. So there is sort of things like looking at what crops can we regrow again? For example, I've been hearing about hemp as a great quote that they're looking at, how can we bring this back into more areas in the UK now because that is a very good biometrial, resilient material that we can use. So at the minute, we're obviously we're still having to import in our wood and things like that. But again, than where by using waste. So for example, what we're looking at doing and doing, trying experiments with working with barfuse uni, for example, to invent our own waste material. So where, you know, you say say the wood shavings or whatever looking at how we can reuse that in projects, designing out waste. So we've got a very precise cutting list. Using our CMHC machines that and then we'll use the bits that are left, not just burn them, but can we make products from them and sell them? So that's one way that we're using things more locally, but it's sort of also using local workforce. It's it's supporting other business. It's locally as well. It's trying to build this sort of network and not being very much in silo. It's about collaboration as the way forward really now to build these strong, more resilient relationships. Yeah. Because that's what we've sort of found, for example, the kitchen. Again, I'd bring back to we're building these kitchens, but without what's the point of bringing sort of food in that's not being, you know, organic or not thought about onto this beautiful, sustainable kitchen. It's about the local producers. It's about the local chefs. It's about bringing everything together really now and almost trying to sort of relearn some of the things that we've perhaps forgotten about in the past.

Jeffrey Hart: 29:25

Brilliant. So when we spoke before, you spoke about changes to the business structure, to the sort of conventional model. What what's happening there?

Helen Gordon: 29:35

Yeah. Well, I think as we've already touched on with transparency being ethical, people that work for businesses are looking for that. They're tired of this whole sort of growth and this whole is just about profit. That's why we're in business. I didn't think any so many people just I'm not lucky to that anymore. They don't want it. So this capitalist system doesn't does not, you know, it's not delivering anymore, is it? It's all about, let's lower inflation, let's get GDP up and I think there's there's a lot of people crying out for different ways of working and there's sort of people more at the one end maybe that are seen as more revolutionary, but things that I've been interested in because, I mean, things to start with like b core for a start, where you're, you know, you're kicking lots of boxes and filling things in, going on quite a hard journey to become a b core. But you're then seen as more of an ethical sort of business that cares about social impact as well. And that's great. And that's something that we're on a journey to doing. But I think it, you know, people taking boxes for ESG, this kind of thing. That's great too. But in order to completely change, I think it needs to be this regenerative idea, and it comes back to local and sort of looking by regionally ideas in place. And there's a guy called John Fulton who used to be the managing director for JPMorgan in America. He's seen as one of these revolutionary sort of guys as he talks about regenerative capitalism. And he's talking about this and how can we look at things like biometry where the flows of material seen in nature coming emulated in purposeful businesses. And it's about this idea of, yeah, you know, the inside of your business, but also your outside sort of mimicking that being a purposeful business. And looking locally that's very much what we general regeneration is. And --

Jeffrey Hart: 31:46

Mhmm.

Helen Gordon: 31:46

-- yeah. The the Better Business Act is a is another idea, again, where it's sort of starting on a measure, but we've signed that as a company. And it's about amending section one seven two of the company's act. Which would is the job description for company directions directors would be to ensure that all businesses align their interests and people and planets alongside profit so that we're not just talking about profit where we're looking at, you know, what is the social impact that goes into something and measuring that within the business and also what goes back to the planet. I think that's really important going forward.

Jeffrey Hart: 32:25

Oh, yeah. I definitely feel at the moment like with the The privatized water companies, it's -- they're taking huge amounts of profits and putting so little into infrastructure and it's I think that sort of being shown more and more as a the high end or so high level capitalism just sucking from the what? From everything? From Yeah. Exactly. From putting nothing back Yeah.

Helen Gordon: 32:52

That's a great example, isn't it when you're on the beach with nature and you've got sewage coming out and --

Jeffrey Hart: 32:57

Yeah.

Helen Gordon: 32:57

-- it's absolutely out there now. You can't deny it whereas before they were just trying to paper over the cracks, weren't they? So Yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 33:04

And just absorbing the fines as part of their business model is that it makes me so angry.

Helen Gordon: 33:09

Yeah. Totally. Absolutely. So how can we make this change? I do not know. There's people out there --

Jeffrey Hart: 33:17

Mhmm.

Helen Gordon: 33:17

-- lobbying. I'm part of where part of them. Business declares as well, which is also a sort of movement to change. And we came and did a day at the extinction rebellion big one in April, which for a lot of companies may have never done anything like that before. We're very scared about sort of standing outside the energy building, but it was I think they felt empowered and it was a space for people to come together because people are just there's so many people out there that know that change is needed, you know, that that they might not think that is the right way to do it. But business declares was great for sort of bringing people together to do that. And they're now looking at ways of how can we move this forward for change as well? They've just sent out a a sort of questionnaire for people that belong to it to see you know, where can we go. So there's under under the radar, there's lots of different things happening. It's just how can we sort of create this quicker movement now to almost do it right, but to almost lobby the government perhaps, you know, how how can we make them listen to us more Yes. It

Jeffrey Hart: 34:32

does it does feel like there there's definitely lots of really good things going on as you quite grassroots But, yeah, how do you get the the legislation changes which actually force everyone to to to do the right thing?

Helen Gordon: 34:47

Exactly. Totally.

Jeffrey Hart: 34:49

I get a lot of emails from people who are kind of excited to make these these changes. Although, I think they're probably in a place that you were in before COVID in that kind of space of feeling like maybe your work and your ethics weren't quite aligned, but needing that big sort of shift. What advice would you give to people for who are in that position?

Helen Gordon: 35:12

I would say that they're gonna get left behind if they don't change. I mean, we're very much in the you know, if you think about the circular economy again, that has to be the way forward that sort of circular idea of manufacture, the old twentieth century linear way of manufacture, take make waste, for example. It it just can't carry on because we're just building up more and more waste, more and more consumption. So the standards that are on that are coming in. There's more things coming in. And hopefully, this will happen the next few years. And if people don't sort of get on that Bam Morgan. I didn't think they're gonna resistors. It's not Bam Morgan. Sorry. On to that, they're not gonna exist as as companies in the future.

Jeffrey Hart: 36:06

So

Helen Gordon: 36:06

I think it's yeah. It's sort of trying to find out the best way of doing things and maybe looking at the carbon, first of all, you know, having a tool or getting report done and and looking at what you can do to make changes there. Perhaps, doing one of these sort of movements so that you're part of like minded sort of other companies where maybe they might have suggestions to help you as well. It's sort of not trying to do it on your own as well because it's it's it's it can be lonely and it can be But even if you're making tiny little steps, it's a start. But I mean, I would recommend really is it's a brove. I know step that we did, but I think the whole of the company really needs to be rethought about and, you know, everything coming back to sustainability rather than just having it as an add on. So yeah. So that is that is the more sort of bigger eyed revolutionary idea, the braver idea, but That's what I've done.

Jeffrey Hart: 37:15

Yeah. Be brave.

Helen Gordon: 37:18

Yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 37:19

So, I mean, secular economy has has come up quite a lot in our discussion. I find it hard to to to be truly circular in the work I do. I know there's lots of so for instance, I use hemp and wood fiber insulation a lot in my job. All comes wrapped in plastic. You know, there's always like the this is brilliant. But yeah. I suppose that is it working and is it and how how do we make it more circular? I know it's either circular. It's not, but more completely circular. Maybe.

Helen Gordon: 37:55

Yeah. And I think and I think, again, this is the tough place that we're at at the moment. Isn't it? It's sort of moving away from this take my waste to this, yeah, let designing out waste and thinking about repurability in the future and we're at absolutely. There's, you know, we're working with so many different suppliers ourselves or by building things or making products that you'll then come to a like, oh, well, that's gonna ruin my circular process now because, you know, that as you say, there's plastic in that or there's But I think as long as you're sort of starting with that model and and trying to work as best as you can and almost looking at each bit of it, and sort of okay. Well, this bit at the moment isn't quite why it isn't circular, but this is a bit that we're working on. One time material comes in or something then we'll we'll use that instead, and that will make it better. But it I think it's just having that mindset shift that this is that this is the way that we want to do things rather than this. We don't care. Am I gonna chuck it in waste and not worry about stuff in the future? That's the really important thing to start with. And then, yeah, just again, coming back to this sort of we're on this journey. Don't beat ourselves up too much about it either. We're trying to do our best to make this as best we can circular, but you know, you can't just do things overnight and there's so many supply chains involved that, you know, Yeah. But I think that's the best the best advice I would give on that.

Jeffrey Hart: 39:35

You you did the the Ellen McCarthy Foundation

Helen Gordon: 39:39

I did. Yeah. I looked at various things as a guy in Exton University. It's a professor called Ken Webster that was doing conversations on it as well. He was great. I took I had a conversation with him too. But, yeah, it was sort of just really showing the model. Aidan, I mean, I've read books by Donalamedo. She was also someone that started this whole idea. Revolutionary woman, and it's almost Ellen MacArthur's taking the same idea. Just giving it a different name, moved it on. But they really brought it out into the forefront. And, yeah, it it just sort of made you understand really about how it works. And it's almost not a circle. It's more there. Their sort of picture is more like a butterfly with sort of different like ecosystems coming out of either side. And perhaps that's a better way of sort of talking about it because as we've already just mentioned, it's very hard to be totally circular. But, yeah, it's thinking about the carbon, the produce. It's thinking about the bio materials. It's thinking about repurposed ability in the future. It's thinking about lots of things really and and, yeah, how how we make in a a sort of better way than we did through our linear system.

Jeffrey Hart: 41:01

Is there is there a really good example in in a sort of project that you've worked in where where you've taken something that was linear and you've you've substituted for something circular?

Helen Gordon: 41:11

Well, we're still sort of doing that at the moment really by developing this material that we really will shift us forwards in terms of being circular. We've used other people's sort of materials perhaps that were made from waste. We've we've had lots of samples, for example, like we've it's a company called Biome that's doing great things with mycelium insulation, things like that that they've just bought out this year. She's so we've used other people's things to help be more circular. They're also we've got samples of, like, cocoa that they've, you know, used and we're very much keen to do this sort of thing ourselves and to seek to experiment, but trying to do it properly with science behind us because, for example, if particularly if we're doing something for the kitchen, it's got to be quality and it's got to be durable. There's no point reinventing something that is gonna break straight away or, you know, you also do have to try and decide, okay, well, is this going to buy a degrade in time or what is going to happen to this when it's repurposed? So you've got lots of criteria that you've got to think about. And you've also got to think about the energy in doing this because if you're trying to reinvent something, what's the point of using more energy to do something than what is already there. But the fundamental thing comes back to how can we replace fossil fuels and sort of weighing it back to that as well, which is what I always come back to. So I don't really like using recycled plastic because it's still made out fossil fuels at the end of the day, and it's it's almost it's not totally regenerative. Bio is the only way I think that we can solve this problem in the future.

Jeffrey Hart: 43:07

Yeah. So we've talked a little bit sort of come up about regeneration versus sustainability. I'm very conscious of this. I've noticed that I sort of realized about episode ten of the building sustainability podcast, but sustainability maybe wasn't the best. Word I could have used. Well, quickly, can you describe what, yeah, the principle of of regenerative versus sustainable. I can't even say it.

Helen Gordon: 43:38

Well, sustainability is almost like I've mentioned earlier. It's a bit like a sticking plaster. It's about doing less harm. And it's something that, you know, it's almost like adding it onto something. You're not thinking totally about it. You just Oh, let's see if we can measure the carbon that we're using on a project or, you know, the the energy Oh, that's okay. Let's take that box and then we move on and and still nothing really changes enough. And it's almost degenerative, really, this sustainable thing. It it needs it needs to move on to the regenerative, which is is trying to fix everything. It's about the world being a people and planet coming back to place, reconnecting with nature and restoring eco systems, you know, reuniting communities. And I love this idea of the local. It's almost we've got this global mindset, but we're bringing it back to a local idea. It's almost like it's too big for our brains to comprehend all this global stuff. But on a local level, when you look by regionally at rivers, the way that things are mapped out, we can we can rebuild, you know, you look at how indigenous communities have looked after these areas to centuries until we started bothering them, ruining what they've done. And they really are the wise people that we need to look to and perhaps look back at our history. And there was a reason why why things were built along rivers. And and let's let's come back and that's what, you know, everybody's saying now that let's almost remap how we look at things, and it's not just perhaps coming from a city and looking at looking at it. I'm involved I started to have evolved in the doughnut economics Kate Wayworth and her donor economics is trying to sort of various initiatives are trying to happen throughout the world. There's been one in Sydney, one in Amsterdam, and we're looking at whether we can do in an Oxford show at the moment. And it's very much this thinking of this bi regional idea starting to map, even the counties again within Oxford Street because you can't say southwest north. It needs to you need to look at the rivers to remap it, and then almost coming out from there, you know, how can we how can we rebuild this? And what other communities that are within that? May that be a, say, a charity or a person or a business and how can we then work together to sort of rebuild it? And that's what I think regeneration is looking at the biodiversity as well and and sort of, you know, really working with that, saving it, not just topping it down, and and sort of yeah. It's it's a it's a definite mind shift paradigm and it's it's really bigger bigger thinking thinking more on a sort of subconscious level as well. About moving forward and not. Yeah. Sustainable is just, as I said, it's almost trying to fix a problem and sort of glue over it, but it's not it's not it it's just not gonna solve the problem.

Jeffrey Hart: 47:08

That's we we can think a little bigger and better. We're not necessarily probably not bigger, just better than that.

Helen Gordon: 47:14

And I'm very conscious, you know, with my dog every day and see how the landscape changes. And I think he's been brilliant to almost bring me back to that scene in his place. And I'm very much looking at oh, I haven't seen so many insects or Oh, what the farmer is doing is I'm walking around and sort of really noticing things locally that perhaps I haven't done before getting that dog even, you know. And I think that's what we need to do more. It's it's not about flying in a plane to see the culture of we need to look on our doorstep. Yeah. Mhmm. Absolutely.

Jeffrey Hart: 47:54

We've we've had a really nice thing around here where the neighboring fields have been left they're they're growing wildflower or harvesting wildflower. So all the fields aren't getting mown. They're not having been grazed off. And the amount of butterflies and just of an evening, the swallow is swooping over the fields, obviously, gobbling up all of the stuff. And then we had a whole I think there was four I think there might have been guest rules just to hunting in our field just at the weekend. And it's, you know, a small change of not mowing a a space has made like a really big biodiversity impact.

Helen Gordon: 48:34

That's sort

Jeffrey Hart: 48:35

of noticeable and easy easy to quantify one.

Helen Gordon: 48:38

Yeah. Absolutely. And we've seen the same thing around here, actually. Yeah. And it's Yeah. It's really powerful, isn't it? Yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 48:46

Absolutely. Also, I really I liked what you said there about the regenerative. I hadn't really expanded my thoughts on regenerative design into the community level. The yeah. The the ability to bring people together and, you know, we're actually creating community with a a project, how that is is regenerative as well.

Helen Gordon: 49:10

I think all of it and and it and it comes back to we've again, this word silo, we've become to, you know, we we don't talk to say, like, older older generations or you know, there needs to be more of this mixing up again as what and and but through, for example, these community projects because you would perhaps be the people that you'd never thought you would ever talk to. And they've got different ideas and different ways of looking at things. And I think this is what it comes back to and that's that's what we've lost and we need to bring that back again because everybody has different ideas. We need to be more inclusive, more yeah. How can we include everyone within this? And --

Jeffrey Hart: 49:56

Mhmm.

Helen Gordon: 49:56

-- yeah. Build this idea of of community? Absolutely.

Jeffrey Hart: 50:00

Yeah. What's exciting you at the moment?

Helen Gordon: 50:03

I think the the the the so many more biomaterials are coming out that we can use in our projects. Mhmm. This idea of the communities and the idea there is so much more collaboration happening. And yeah, I think this bottom up idea of how we can make change, and why it's not waiting for the governments. As businesses and communities and people, we can do this together. And and Yeah. And that's what I'm seeing happening. You might not see it reported, but there is things happening behind the scenes. There is, you know, parts, we are a bit slow in this country, and I see so many exciting things happening. It's Scandinavia. I must admit with materials and things. I keep looking over there, go, good. They've already looked at that. They've done it. But How can we how can we, yeah, learn from that as well and sort of yeah. So, yeah, I I think things are moving in the right direction. It's just how can we sort of accelerated a bit more or less?

Jeffrey Hart: 51:13

You've mentioned materials there. You know, you've you've mentioned a few examples Is there anything that you're sort of championing in the material wise?

Helen Gordon: 51:25

Well, mycelium is an amazing material, which I think is gonna be used a lot more within projects.

Jeffrey Hart: 51:36

Mhmm.

Helen Gordon: 51:37

And yeah, just looking at things like food waste as well as a as a waste material is is quite exciting, you know, from perhaps using it. There's lots of experiments to see where we can go with that. Can we use it as a countertop? Can we But I'm I'm looking more at at materials that we're using, that haven't been sort of shipped. So for example, coffee, you know, are we always going to be able to get coffee? Maybe if the land heats up so much, we'll have our own coffee here, but yeah, as I said, hemp, things like that, that we can grow locally and we can almost use the the excess of the hemp to make into things. That's what we excites me. How can we is this this local idea again how can we --

Jeffrey Hart: 52:31

Mhmm.

Helen Gordon: 52:32

-- build sorry, grow our own materials that we can then use the waste from to make other materials that really excites me and how we can cause change and in our interior environments for the better really?

Jeffrey Hart: 52:48

You you mentioned when you were talking about the the oxford, the cottage project -- Mhmm.

Helen Gordon: 52:53

--

Jeffrey Hart: 52:54

that you'd used a a sort of newer plaster on the walls.

Helen Gordon: 52:58

Yeah. We used adaptive eight plaster, which is line based. And Yeah. It allows the the walls to breathe and in old houses that is particularly important. I mean, you can talk more about this to me because I make But, yeah, it's it's trying not to sort of use cement based things as well, isn't it?

Jeffrey Hart: 53:25

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's a really good example of a simple substitution that that can be made. You know, swap one bag of plaster for for another. Any other any other sort of materials you're I I love a good material no doubt, so that's why I'm asking.

Helen Gordon: 53:42

I mean, there's interesting things that are doing with textiles at the moment as well to, like, denim using see, the the thing for me is I've got to be careful is that I don't know what the buyer so they've they've got to obviously make the material So if it's for an interior, not just a finishing fabric order, but they've got to bind it with something to make to give it strength. I'm just not totally sure if they're using completely vegetable binders or whatever in different things, but they're they're doing some interesting sort of things with denim, for example, and other waste, waste textiles, which is a huge sort of area that so much landfill of clothes. What can we turn it into instead? And that's certainly something that we can reuse in our local areas as well.

Jeffrey Hart: 54:36

I saw a video of a chap making. He was suppressing denim together with resin and then turning them into frames for glasses and that sort of thing. Is that what you mean? Are you -- Yeah.

Helen Gordon: 54:46

--

Jeffrey Hart: 54:46

concerned about what that that resin

Helen Gordon: 54:49

would be? Because you still can't necessarily repurpose it down the line if it's still got some kind of That's what I'm I'm still not totally, you know, believing in will show me how you can re repurpose it then in the future. Yeah. Yeah. And has it got some element of fossil fuel still in it.

Jeffrey Hart: 55:10

Yes.

Helen Gordon: 55:10

This is more the purest thinking here, but I think I'd rather be on that line than not to be honest.

Jeffrey Hart: 55:17

Oh oh, completely. Yeah. And it's it's hard to wait through the the green wash.

Helen Gordon: 55:23

Exactly.

Jeffrey Hart: 55:25

Oh, we used ten percent recycled material wear an eco product?

Helen Gordon: 55:30

No. No. No. Exactly. Exactly.

Jeffrey Hart: 55:33

And so how are you using these principles in your interiors?

Helen Gordon: 55:38

Yeah. Well, when we when we first go into a place, it's almost doing an audit of the space and even sort of saying to the client, you know, let's say they want a whole space looking at, do you actually need to change that to start with which is quite a brave move? It's

Jeffrey Hart: 55:58

really brilliant.

Helen Gordon: 55:58

Yeah. Perhaps not gonna be earning as much from it. And then sort of going, well, can we reuse it? Do we have to buy new is there something we can do with it? And that's almost the first principle. And then in whether that be a residential or a commercial project, And then, you know, say for example, we are trying to pioneer to make sort of better kitchens that don't come from China. And amazed using materials that we can repurpose. We're using a ghoulish construction because that means that they they can be repurposed easier in the future. And that's something that we've sort of been spending quite a lot of time doing. And then looking, you know, when we start peeling away, for example, layers of the kitchen, you know, a lot of it is durable because of the laminate that is put onto the the wood. But again, the the laminate, how we perishable is that. Once it's stuck onto the wood, you can't really get it off. So that means that that whole piece has to go in landfill in the future. So what materials can we use instead? Just constantly thinking about durability And and this is tough. It's sort of, you know, we've we've done experiments with low VOC paint And that is, you know, can be a good way because you can touch up things continually as you go forward. So that's something that we do specify. And we're looking at other materials like lino as well at the moment because you can repurpose that as well. But it's quite a complicated subject because you've got so many different parts to a kitchen, like, you know, recyclable feet. Say somebody wanted to move it to another house. How can you do that? How can you make it so that, you know, it it could be used for disabled for one person, but then someone else comes in that has different needs. It's thinking about the whole ergonomics and the whole sort of adaptability of things in the future as well. That's what we're trying to do. And then you come to the border interiors, and as I've mentioned, there's a lot of off gassing that occurs from, for example, sofas that have got flame retardants on the actual fabrics that make them. And so it's educating the client on this kind of thing as well. There's there's various, you know, we've been lobbying as part of Ontario declares supporting a lady upholstery who's been lobbying the government about change. Because they're finding out a poster as a, you know, they're getting absolutely horrible hands. They're they're really being affected by the the chemical treatments that are happening. And there was also something recently to do with match as well where they're lobbying. And in commercial settings, you have to have crib five standards for mattresses, which is this flame. The flame retardancy. And they were finding after about seven years that the the chemicals either all gone into the humans or they'll have gone out onto the atmosphere. So what's the point of using those then? So you've got all these dodgy chemicals that we don't know about within us. So and there our standards are quite different to Europe and almost a bit more stringent in some ways, like, you know, how often do we have candles and use them in our house? So why do we need some of these standards anymore? They're a bit are antiquated really. And, you know, like, you on the bottom of a product, for example, you'll have a fire label that's attached to it, people don't realize that it becomes redundant if you take that label off.

Jeffrey Hart: 59:52

Right.

Helen Gordon: 59:52

You have to keep that label on it. And a lot of now, they've introduced guidelines recently because of the the chemicals when they're in. You can't even put your sofa or whatever in landfill anymore because so that shows how toxic it is. But, yes, we've got them still in our houses. It's crazy. There's so many different ways of reeducating, and it's almost like going through this whole process. When you're starting a project with with your client really. And if they make just one of those changes, it's to start Yes.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:00:25

I I mean, what has become apparent to me as you're talking is that I think people would probably think of interior designers as as sort of space makers or place makers, you know, colors and objects and shapes. And actually what's needed in the same as in building. It's a a deep knowledge of what the material actually is and what it's doing. So not just looks.

Helen Gordon: 1:00:53

Totally. Yeah. It's it's I mean, it's it's the special. It's the ergonomics, which I think people neglect too much. And and there is this whole sort of disparity, but what what is an interior designer? It will not interior decorator is one thing, but an interior designer is also thinking about the needs of the person in the space. And this well-being idea is I think what needs to become fourth front is that we're thinking about the well-being of the person in space. And that means, as you say, for what are those products and how where they mayform and how are they going to better the person in the space in the future. And then looking at the, you know, the light glare, the natural conditions and how you can use technology as well to sort of work with it. But yeah, lots lots of different things. And also, obviously, BioPhilia is huge.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:01:47

Which is the buzzword of the podcast and the last couple of years.

Helen Gordon: 1:01:50

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:01:53

Well, I mean, it's it's been fantastic to hear from you. I've found it incredibly inspiring. And I'm really hopeful, actually. I've had a few months of of being a bit overwhelmed by things and feeling, yeah, pretty pretty beaten by by a lot of sort of news stories and and, you know, the weather.

Helen Gordon: 1:02:17

Absolutely. I feel the same, but I think as well we it's important that we get into these space is more with like minded people and take stock at you of what is happening. And yeah. I think that's the only thing we can do really to try and and we, you know, we've got I've got children. I don't know if you have, but I have, and I I can't not do anything when I think about their future. It's I've got to try and do all I can because that's that's the only way we move forward. By sticking our heads in the sand, yeah, well stuff that he cares anyway. I I just think that's tragic. As designers, I've always been a designer. I think we've got a responsibility because we are always the innovators and the people that cause change at the front now is our chance because we've been neglected. This will send me on my whole designer band backing. But creativity is always, you know, It's always about science. It's always and we are to think is that think creatively and we are so needed now. They're saying that as number seventeen in as a role, design is now coming to be wanted to number three, to work with science, to to make change. So brilliant. Finally, we've got a voice.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:03:36

What were you said number number seven

Helen Gordon: 1:03:39

sort of ranked as as an industry, yeah, it's quite low down, not really seen as an important, you know, an important thing.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:03:47

I had no idea that that we'd be nice.

Helen Gordon: 1:03:50

Yes. Of course. That's why who they give funding to and who they don't.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:03:55

Of course. Yes. Oh, well, yeah. Number number three is where we might have, you know.

Helen Gordon: 1:04:00

Absolutely.