Why I carve spoons while the world burns - Dave Cockcroft - BS104

Jeffrey Hart: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Building Sustainability Podcast. With me, geoffrey Hart, every fortnight, join me as I talk to designers, builders, makers, dreamers and doers. Together we can explore the wide world of sustainability in the built environment by talking to wonderful people who are doing excellent things. Hello and a warm welcome to episode 104. This episode's guest is Dave Cockroft, who is returning to the podcast chat about rebellious acts. Dave was actually the very first episode I recorded for the podcast, way back in 2019. So it's about time we had a bit of a catch up. I'll pop a link to episode number four with Dave Cockroft in the show notes. Before the episode, I want to just tell you about a few things that are going on. There is the retrofit, reimagined. This year. There are five dates for the festival. We've already missed the one in Bath, but September 28th in London, october 6th in Bristol, october 21st and 22nd at the Centre for Tensive Technology in McUncliffe and November 11th in Glasgow. If you are interested in retrofit and generally just good buildingy things, then make sure you get along to one of those. Also wanted to say a massive thank you to George, who has supported the podcast over at patreoncom forward slash building sustainability. Also a huge thanks to Lloyd Rushton-Jones, george Harris and Matthew Colburn, who have all supported the podcast at the higher level and will each be getting a hand carved wooden spoon carved by my own two hands. I've got some lovely beach at the moment from a 400 year old tree that came down in the storms a few years ago. I'm just working my way through that and it is perfect. So look out for those in the post soon and if you would like to support this podcast, it is independently produced by me. It takes quite a long time and it's quite a lot of hard work. So, yeah, it would be really gratefully received. If you can support, then please do at patreoncom. Forward slash building sustainability, but equally, if you can't afford it, then absolutely enjoy this for free. We've had a lovely review. This is short and to the point. I love it from. Freya Freeborg probably said that horribly wrong. Five stars natural building to the people, great inspiration and nerdiness. Yeah that's what we're going for. If you enjoy this podcast and you have a minute to spare, maybe while I waffle on during this intro, then a quick review over our podcast will go a long way to getting more ears hearing the podcast, and it would make me very happy. There's a link to that in the show notes. Other updates from me the Nettocrum Craft School is really starting to take shape. We are booking in courses now for spring of next year, when we will open, and we would absolutely love for you to come and join us. So there are going to be courses in various green woodworking spoon carving, bowl turning. There's going to be some print making workshops, baskets made of chestnut bark. You can come and bind a book with a wooden cover and a coptic bind, which I'm reliably informed is as old as the Egyptian era and a whole load of other stuff that we haven't booked in yet. The best way to stay in touch with that is to follow Nettocrum Craft School on Instagram. There's a link in the show notes. What else? Earth Floors. I have finished some of my favourite floors I think I overdone recently and you can have a look at my Instagram to see those. One of them has got this beautiful bathtub in it. Yeah, I would say sexy floors. Can floors be sexy? Yeah, of course. Again, take a look and tell me what you think. A link in the show notes as well. Right, so we should probably get on with the episode. Dave came to visit the, the new craft school, and we recorded the conversation there. Sat just outside the structure, the roundward timber frame structure where the fire pit will be. When we make it, as it's an outside recording, there are various bird noises and quite an intrusive plane at one point, and you'll also hear the gentle background noises of spoon carving while we chat. Dave has sent through loads of links to things that have inspired him to get to this point in his thinking, so do check out the show notes and dig into them. Definitely, listen right to the end, because I will be giving away the very first spoon carved in the Nettocrum Craft School from a very special bit of wood that we talk about later. So don't miss your chance to win that. And the final, final thing, before I unleash Dave's wonderful thoughts on you, is that I wanted to share something from last weekend which is fitting to the episode. So last weekend I attended the bowl gathering, which was a hundred and something, maybe 140 people in a field nerding out thoroughly about turning bowls from wood on foot powered lathe. This would have been the method that most wooden bowls were made up until the invention of the electric lathe, and this craft was on the verge of extinction when all the bowl turners switched to electric. George Lely was in fact the last bowl turner single-handedly keeping the skills and traditions alive. So recently Brian Moist, lely's great nephew, has been on a Lely quest researching his mother's side of the family. He's learning loads about George Lely as a result and went to turn a bowl with Sheriff Adams. He also unearthed this gorgeous little newspaper article that Sheriff read at the bowl gathering and I thought you might enjoy it. Mr Lely is the laughed craftsman of his kind in the country. He makes wooden bowls and platters by hand, using a method that goes back to the Middle Ages, and usually, I gather, he does not take particularly kindly to sightseers who go to watch him at work. When Miss Adkins visited him some time ago, however, he apparently decided that she was seriously interested in his craft. He let her choose a piece of elm and then he worked it into a bowl for her. She now possesses two Lely bowls, of which she is very proud. Mr Lely, described as the happiest man alive, is sad about one thing there is no one to succeed him in the business his family has carried on for three centuries and, as Sheriff Adams said as he read that out, just imagine how pleased Lely would be to know that there was now Hundreds of people enjoying this craft geeking out, and really it is a thing that is booming in popularity. Right, that's it. I'm back at the end. Enjoy, dave. But and you know, I realized, though you were episode number four of the podcast and you're gonna be episode 104 hurry.

Dave Cockroft: 7:48

I wondered if that was going to work out.

Jeffrey Hart: 7:49

I just listened to 103.

Dave Cockroft: 7:51

I thought oh yeah. Yeah, you've, you're back for your century, century, and I'll hold my bat up, my spoon.

Jeffrey Hart: 8:05

Wave to the crowns. Yeah, but this is a slightly A slightly anomaly in terms of podcasting for me. Normally I've got a whole load of questions and I've done lots of prep, and this time you've it's sort of reversed a little bit.

Dave Cockroft: 8:24

I might ask you some questions.

Jeffrey Hart: 8:26

Mmm, I Don't know how I feel about that You'll enjoy it. Yeah, but you were, you posited the idea that and we were gonna talk about.

Dave Cockroft: 8:40

Why I carve spoons while the world burns and I like that a lot.

Jeffrey Hart: 8:48

Feels like a thought I've had quite a lot.

Dave Cockroft: 8:52

So yes, I was very interested in In the topic right, well, I've done a bit of thinking and I have to say this is sort of ideas I'm developing in dialogue with other people. Yep. And I have a kind of framework and I've thought a lot about the. In a way, I want to kind of Radicalize spoon carving and say this isn't just some Silly hobby we do in our spare time, but it's actually quite a profound practice that Helps us as individuals and as a community, that we are each reshaped by this practice. And I'm not claiming I might claim a few special things to spoon carving, but I'm not claiming it's the only practice that does this. Yeah, but it is a practice. I think it has some significant elements to it, such as working with natural materials, working with very sharp things that help. So I want to talk about three ours. I've decided it is. I'll talk about re-story, reconnect and relate or relating. And then the fourth hour is radical, but you'll see the other three lead to it being a radical act in my opinion. Okay excellent. So why I carve spoons while the world burns and I think you know it is increasingly in the news. I think it would be hard push these days not to have a degree of awareness that there are multiple converging crises. Hmm including the climate crisis and the freshwater crisis and the toxic pollutants crisis and the Rising acidification of the oceans crisis and the loss of soil crisis. Yeah, many things. We've got river toxicity in this country now, haven't we? Yeah, from all the, the overflow, sewagey things in the water. Many crises, and I Feel like you know I'm quite old now, but I feel I've been struggling, working on all these issues as an activist since the 1980s. I first became aware of the climate issue back then and I've always been in the Green Party and I've studied in elections and I've held office in local authorities and I've done lots of feast campaigning and I've been involved in transition towns and I've been involved all sorts things in my local community, like local agricultural Pro. What are you called community supported agriculture? Yeah, so many, many, and I've studied permaculture and I gave up flying and I try and minimize my plastics and my impacts and Eat vegetarian and vegan as much as possible. Yeah and all those things you're supposed to do, including. I've tried to do the political things and the activism things for For half my lifetime now, for 30 plus years, and it feels like it's all made you know bug, all difference, mm-hmm, honestly, yeah, and I think Through lots of things I've read, I've read recently and I'm left to acknowledge that my son, who's now very involved again in activism but coming from a slightly different angle, has been very influential in some of the things he pointed me at and some of the contacts he had with People from different cultures. He has a lot of contacts with people in the globe, with with youth groups in the global south who are coming from very different perspectives. So the reason I think all my efforts have come to nothing is because they were seated within the dominant stories we live by mm-hmm so, if you look at the primary ways it's being proposed, we escape from the Carbon dioxide pollution problem, the atmospheric carbon dioxide and the global heating and everything. It's kind of saying we do more of the same, except slightly different. We're still gonna have capitalism, we're still gonna have growth, we're still gonna have Exploitative practices, except this time we're gonna exploit lithium for batteries yeah, instead of instead of hydrocarbons for oil. It's kind of Saying somehow we're gonna wriggle out of it by doing the same thing, only slightly different, and it's not Changing. You're still trying to live within this growth paradigm yeah, example, which doesn't Make any sense. I think that any efforts made within that dominant modernity, western culture, our doom to fail Because that fundamental premise, that story that we live by of Capitalism, commodification, exploitation, wage slavery, etc. He's a broken Model mm-hmm you know it's just you can see how. How everything's breaking down a little bit at the moment. You know how tough it is for gen X. They're never gonna be able to afford their own houses in the UK.

Jeffrey Hart: 15:05

Sure.

Dave Cockroft: 15:06

Yeah, you can see how Terrible it is all around the world, how it does increases in In people trying to escape terrible situations, um, whether that's Famines and droughts or wars or whatever you know, the numbers of people trying to get to other countries is only going to increase, um. So I think, uh, uh, I'm gonna suggest anyway, that the fundamental underlying issue for us Is that part of the stories we live by are that we have, um, disconnected ourselves from nature. Mm-hmm, we have even the notion that we are separate from nature. Yes, is a disconnection. Yeah. We have disconnections. We have our mind. Body separation Is a disconnection where we don't even regard ourselves as as a as a whole. Yeah um, and there's all sorts of new you know in recent times and more generally known stuff now, where we know even what they we vaguely regard as ourself as an individual isn't really an individual, but we are, each of us, an ecosystem Consisting of millions of bugs. Mm-hmm live in and on us, without which we can't function. Yeah, um, you know so. You can't. You're not Separate, you're not um other than nature. Yeah, um, and yet the, the way we're brought up and educated, and the way we, you know, the films we watch, the stories we read, all lead us to think of this, of this separateness. So I think, within what we're going to call so, so To make profound, real change, we have to seat ourselves as characters within a new story. Okay, we have to re-story the world, and what I'm going to suggest is that the practice of a craft like spoon carving Is part of a process of Embedding yourself within a new story, a different story. Okay a story that is much more about being connected. Um, um, that was where I kind of want to move, I suppose, on to Things about reconnection, but I think maybe one, one, two more bits want to say about re-story first. Yep, do you want to mention that we're carving spoons while we do this?

Jeffrey Hart: 18:15

Yeah, I mean yeah. So we're carving spoons while the world burns. While we're talking about carving spoons, while the world burns.

Dave Cockroft: 18:25

Yes, we have a spoon each and, and our knives and um.

Jeffrey Hart: 18:32

Yeah so so you're sort of saying um with the you know the work that you've done, um, either sort of politically or activism, or there hasn't made the effort because you're, you're within the system that you actually want, you're playing by the rules of the system that actually causes the harm in the first place. Yeah, pretty much.

Dave Cockroft: 18:56

So needs a complete shake-up of the entire yes, I mean I think you know obviously some of the efforts that are being made within the system so switching to renewable energy from fossil fuels is going to be helpful to a degree, but I mean, I think it's also so you know really, really clear we're going to have to live with less. Yeah and use less resources, and One of the phrase I like is is less is a four letter word, because now whatever dares talk about less, we still talk about growth and more and more stuff and throw away. You know it's hard to get away from living in, in I mean your last episode you were talking To with Helen with Helen. Yeah about some of those changes within. Uh, that was interior design and things wasn't about thinking about being less wasteful and more. So. Those changes will all help, yeah, but I don't think they can go anywhere near far enough. Um, because they're still embedded within. She's still gonna be. Even if you're a b-corp, you're still gonna be a business that's trying to make profit and grow. Yeah they're not taking that out of the equation. Um, and that almost certainly means, even into your best efforts, uh, you're still going to consume more resources, quite likely. Yeah, um, and and yeah, we need to think about different ways. So one of the things let's talk about what's different about Taking up a craft like spoon carving? So I think one of the very profound differences is being able to make something Yourself that you'd normally buy, that you'd normally buy yeah. So that shift whatever it is that you're making that you'd normally buy, you're shifting out of, um, a consumerist, commodified approach, yeah, into a craft thing where you have an individual, you as an individual, you have agency, you have the ability to make from a piece of wood a utensil that you'll use every day to eat your food or cook your food or hold your food making a bowl, and whilst that sounds, on one level, quite trivial, it is actually so. I've done a few interviews with people talking about stuff and what has come up quite a lot is this idea that they find it quite empowering to do that, that you gain a sense of that you're not a passive consumer, you're not just looking at a screen and clicking buttons, clicking the buy now button. You're actually having to engage with the real world with a sharp tool and a piece of wood and your hands and your brain, and be focused and be present and gradually skill yourself in being able to create an artefact. So I'm going to talk about that as being I prefer that as being reconnecting, because I think that reconnects us with being more ourselves, more human, because that is what humans have done through many, many millennia, through all through human evolution We've been makers.

Jeffrey Hart: 22:53

Yeah, yeah, certainly the period of time that we haven't been makers is sort of a blip on a human scale or sort of humanity scale.

Dave Cockroft: 23:07

How do you mean?

Jeffrey Hart: 23:08

As in if you think about all the time we were makers and all the time we weren't.

Dave Cockroft: 23:13

Oh, I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously, I mean, if we go back far enough, it's hard to say exactly when.

Jeffrey Hart: 23:19

Are you not thinking far enough back? Well, I am.

Dave Cockroft: 23:22

but even then I think we used sticks and quite quickly have worked out some sticks were better than other sticks and how to shape sticks and which sticks through through the air better. I mean I know you know long ago it was referred to as the Stone Age. Yeah, I think it was probably the Stick Age and just the sticks have rotted and they ought to recall it. The Stick Age. The Stick Age, because I bet we use sticks for all kinds of stuff and only bothered with stones later on. Yeah. But that's my hypothesis. I like it. So I think, but makers, and whether that was involved in making, you know, spears and things, things that might help hunt or defend, or whether that was involved in making utensils. I think there was an awful lot of making of baskets. You know, in the age before carrier bags, you had something to carry a gear around in if it was just a load of nuts you found.

Jeffrey Hart: 24:24

Yeah.

Dave Cockroft: 24:25

You know. So there was always working with, so working with your hands. That's why we have this amazing dexterity in our hands and the remarkable level of nerve connections between hands and brain. Yeah, you see, that thing's called the humongous or something, isn't it? That model of a human where all the parts are scaled by the amount of nerve connections to the brain? I've not seen that. No, yeah, it's very cool. It's got really giant hands Right and really big fat lips and quite big genitals yeah, it's right. So, so different parts, but particularly your hands, are, I think, your lips and things are quite sensitive areas, areas where you have a lot of connectivity with your brain. But a large areas of your brain are all about working your hands. Yeah, in order to be able to manipulate objects and change objects. So obviously, when you're spoon carving or basket making or doing other handcraft, you're re-engaging those parts of your brain. Yeah. That are neglected in much of our modern life, which is a bit button pushy and screen pokey these days. Yeah, so when I talk to other folks, well, I'm going to ask you the question actually. Then I'll maybe say what some of the people said. So my question is kind of is what does spoon carving do for you? Just fire away first thoughts.

Jeffrey Hart: 26:20

Well, first thoughts were I mean, it teaches kind of what's the thought. See, I guess, in that it's not simple and it's, you know, everyone's first spoon looks a bit like a dog chewed old stick, and then those that do decide to keep on practicing. You know, it's refinement and refinement, and failures, and yeah, it's sort of humility.

Dave Cockroft: 26:53

That's interesting and it's quite difficult to spoon carving.

Jeffrey Hart: 26:58

I think the humility comes from the difficulty, yeah, and especially, I think, because you know we are so distanced from using our hands to create things and you know the use of a knife I think probably in days gone by everyone would carry a knife and, you know, used it for all all number of things, and now it's quite terrifying to a lot of people. So that's slightly tangential, though. What do I get from it? I get a reason to sit still that maybe I wouldn't think to sit still, but I'd think to sit and carve a spoon, and at the end I think oh. I'm very relaxed and have sort of my mind's gone to a, you know a quite calm place, unless it's all gone terribly wrong.

Dave Cockroft: 28:01

You know, happens down again, happens down again.

Jeffrey Hart: 28:07

I get community. That's a really big one for me. That's probably what's kept me spoon carving in a large sense, you know, gathering with other weird and wonderful woody folk, yeah, yeah.

Dave Cockroft: 28:24

It might come back to that a little bit more when we talk about relating, Because that's that's a very important part of community relating. Yeah. Yeah, I'd agree with all those things. Humility is interesting. I think you're the first person who said humility, but although I think when I was talking to other folks they were sort of like, well, I said that too, but they said it in different words.

Jeffrey Hart: 28:47

Yes, of course.

Dave Cockroft: 28:49

So probably people did say humility, but in slightly different words. Yeah, it's a really interesting one, because I'm not sure how you know, as a lesson it sounds like it's a different lesson than we're getting from most other things we indulge in.

Jeffrey Hart: 29:06

Yeah.

Dave Cockroft: 29:07

Because much of life these days is about convenience and making things easier.

Jeffrey Hart: 29:12

Yeah, and instant gratification and instant gratification.

Dave Cockroft: 29:16

Yeah, so it's not instant, is it?

Jeffrey Hart: 29:18

No, it is something instant, because your first spoon, even though you look back on it, yeah it's only a few hours.

Dave Cockroft: 29:24

It's not like trying to build a building or a chair or a bicycle, all of which take quite a lot longer. Yes, and you really don't want them to go wrong. You can afford something fairly small like a spoon, to go a little bit not quite right and then and then slowly improve, I guess. So some of the things other folks said, well, are you saying about the same thing. People are saying it's an escape, yeah, by which I think they mean an escape from their everyday life and a meditation.

Jeffrey Hart: 29:58

Yes, escape from the calm place, A calm place a flow state.

Dave Cockroft: 30:02

It gives you rapid, I think. I think because of having to concentrate around sharp tools and I think some stuff I talked about way back in episode four was that it gives you quite fast access into a flow state. Yeah, folks said things like in terms of connecting, reconnecting. It helps them connect with their body, get out of their head. Yep. And be more embodied, because you have to be very aware of the feel of the wood and sense the knife. Engaging in the wood, yes, and you're kind of to focus your gaze on what you're doing and coordinate with your hands. So it's very embodied activity. So maybe it's helping reconnect mind and body.

Jeffrey Hart: 30:57

Yeah, I guess my instant thought of that is a lot of therapy things are about if you're having a feeling like where is it in the body? I used to teach snowboarding and some people would have absolutely no idea where their body is in space. You say, push it, it hips up or something. And they wouldn't know how to do it. So, yes, definitely anything that brings you to know how you are physically. I think that and the mental connection with that.

Dave Cockroft: 31:39

Yeah, the escape thing people are into escape from overthinking, escape from life's frustrations so you could hold it up as a mindful practice. Yep, so these are mental health benefits, but they're also about connecting, and some of the women I talked to particularly saying that, as a woman, it feels empowering to work with tools like this, particularly. Perhaps using an axe is something generally. There's not a lot of models of women using axes out there.

Jeffrey Hart: 32:28

Yeah, I suppose yeah, the idea of the lumberjack is the axe wielding big hairy man? Yeah, probably.

Dave Cockroft: 32:40

But someone I know, one of the spin cuffs I talked to, who teaches a lot of women carving, say that they find that process, that initial breaking down, starting with a log and splitting it and working with an axe, is the part that people seem to get the most out of on a first experience of the woman. That was just a reflection from a and that it's quite hard work. It's physically quite hard, you know, particularly if you're carving harder pieces of wood Stuff about being able to. Once you've practiced and got competency and developed your skills, then it's about being able to envisage what you want to make and then being able to do it. That is quite empowering and you know, with spoons, that there's an infinite variety of form and an infinite variety of wood to carve. Yeah, so there's no end to your ability to having, you know, got a piece of wood to find the best thing or the thing you want to do. In that. Let's see if there's one or two other bits.

Jeffrey Hart: 34:10

Have you just have you been researching this specifically for our conversation, or is there so?

Dave Cockroft: 34:16

I've been thinking about it quite a lot and I kind of have the conversations casually, yeah, but I don't normally write notes about what people say. Fair enough. So specifically ahead of this conversation, I talked to a few folks and made an attempt to write down what they're saying, but I can't write as fast as people talk, so it's very much paraphrased or or I get it wrong In some ways. I hope those people who I spoke to who might think Dave's misrepresenting what I said now, I never said that I didn't say that, or I said the same as that one. I said that thing. Anyway, I go there. I'm sure they won't be like that. No.

Jeffrey Hart: 34:51

They were a nice bunch this week, aren't?

Dave Cockroft: 34:53

they. They are on the whole. I can't think of any really nasty ones. So those were some of the main things. Oh then the other bit, or connection, the other big connection bit, is about connection to nature. Yes, and how people talked about how they had, prior to getting into spoon carving, they just thought wood was wood. Yep. And that you learn so much about how different different woods are by trying to carve them and your carving green woods, it comes fresh off the tree. So then you have to know and recognize different trees. So you develop this, this or you reconnect with that diversity of properties of the timber and you develop a deeper appreciation of nature and the different materials that are available to you to use, yeah, and to interact with.

Jeffrey Hart: 36:10

It sort of encourages you to look a bit harder. A walk in the woods is suddenly a sort of like a walk through a material store or something. You know what? I want to know what that is. Those are the leaves I haven't seen before, and I think anything that encourages you to look deeper is.

Dave Cockroft: 36:33

So I think those I suppose in some way. I'm sure there's others that are not getting right now. So it's relating or reconnecting. I'm talking about relating separately in a minute, reconnecting, reconnecting to some extent with your own body. Yep. Reconnecting with you know taking your time to create something that isn't completely instant. You're reconnecting I mean you know you were saying with having to take quite a humble approach to it. Reconnecting with your humility, that's quite an interesting thing, I think as well, and other people talk about you know feeling empowered, reconnecting with their power to make Yep. And I think there's something about reconnecting with our ancestors, which is that these are things that earlier generations would have done routinely.

Jeffrey Hart: 37:41

Yeah.

Dave Cockroft: 37:44

They would have made all sorts of stuff, not just just in a real sat-around making their spoons. They would have made many, many different things. But it gives you some sense, perhaps, of and maybe it gives you a sense of how precious stuff is, that you've spent a good deal of time, you know, developing your ability to do this thing and your ability to make beautiful objects, and then you will regard them as more meaningful and more important and treasure them more and look after them and they won't have that same disposable kind of quality. How I can just combine other one of them.

Jeffrey Hart: 38:34

And appreciation of value.

Dave Cockroft: 38:36

Yeah, the value in the object created. I'm suggesting Something to do like that. Anyway. Any thoughts or more questions you want to ask at that point or I'll move on to other things. I feel I've got a little bit incoherent somewhere, but hopefully it's making some sense.

Jeffrey Hart: 38:59

No, I think you are. You're making absolute sense.

Dave Cockroft: 39:03

That's the encouragement I need. Don't stop, don't stop, don't stop now. Well, let's talk about relating, then. Yeah, relating Because it's something. Or, if I reflect back to this notion of restorying, I think part of a different story is this reconnecting and re-embedding ourselves back into nature and dissolving that boundary between ourselves and nature, that we are part of nature. We are not separate and we're somehow not above. We are embedded, and that's the way we conceptualize ourselves as separate beings. But we're not. We're breathing that air that we've polluted. We're eating the food from the ground. We're having to clean the water that we poisoned. That's all going into our bodies. That's all actually part of us. We're not separate, and there's other folks talking about energetically. We're connected with stuff. There's all kinds of connection. So to live in a predominantly individualistic culture is part of what leads us to be able to exploit nature.

Jeffrey Hart: 40:31

Right.

Dave Cockroft: 40:32

It's like you wouldn't cut off your own arm just to make a few quit. But you will sometimes do it inadvertently, because nobody tells us it's happening. But we will destroy certain parts of the natural world in order to have a more convenient life or a bit more pleasure in inverted commas because maybe it's a pleasure or maybe it's not, maybe it's just instant gratification that really doesn't do anything for us. So one of the other big bits of our story is about relating, and I think most indigenous cultures talk a lot about being in relation and having respect. I suppose once you're in relation and we've talked about community and being in relation with other people, but it's also been in relation to the other than human world, having true empathy with other creatures. And from that thing I was talking about understanding the trees, the properties of the wood that they produce, that we can obtain and use to make things from you develop a kind of different intimacy with those trees. It sounds weird saying you're intimate with a tree but I think by interacting that interaction is a relation and it's an active relation and an appreciation of what the tree is giving or producing or can be quite profound. So I think the act of taking wood and carving a spoon and understanding the properties of that wood leads you to have a different appreciation of a woodland when you see it, or an individual tree, and you won't necessarily be a precious one, it won't be like, oh we couldn't possibly cut down any trees ever or anything like that. But he said kind of, if a tree had to come down or part, it would be about honoring that tree and acknowledging it was part of the community of the woodland. And so many things can sound very initially, can sound kind of very inverted commas here, people you can't see like hippie or something, or new age or something. You can get kind of dissed in that kind of way. But actually it's not quite a profound thing when you can kind of kind of think of a tree as a relative. I tell a little story that came into mind there. All right, guys, it's turned a bit of a therapy session for me, so that's fine. I had some mental health issues I was getting very anxious for a period and I wasn't sleeping well at all. This was about 18 months ago. Two years ago. I was going to rock pressure with lots of stuff going on, all kinds of things going on family-wise. The other was very ill and we tried to do repairs on the house and it was all going wrong and the builder had run away, and I forget. It was just like nightmare time. And what I found super helpful, I'd get up in the morning and go out as quick as I could and do my stretches and go for a little run, not a massive long run, but I had about three trees big trees that I stopped at on that run and I'd stop at each tree and I'd do this little stretching exercise I do where I crouched down and I slowly stretch back up. So I crouched down, tiny like a little seed on the ground and I stretch up with my arms, up like the branches of a tree, and I express gratitude to the tree and I found that enormously helpful and I found it really Well. Again, I felt much more connected with myself and with the earth. It was kind of going little by down in the earth and stretching up towards the sky and looking up at the tree. So it's a little practice I do around trees that somehow also relates to this respect I have for trees now, which has grown through my woodworking and my using the materials they produce and goes to you know and acknowledging. You know it's like I'm very into mushrooms, the edible kinds that you can collect around the place. I'm very into all kinds of mushrooms but I'm very much talking about the edible ones and how the trees have relation with the mushrooms and acknowledging that kind of connectivity, so relating to nature, relating to the other than human. Do you want to say a bit more about community and the woodworking community? And you said it had kept you carving to some extent.

Jeffrey Hart: 46:28

Well, I mean, I realised, probably last year that my dominant friend group is the green woodworking community. Now, and, yeah, sort of, as you're, in my twenties I was very into going to clubs in London and you know I had a group of friends around that and then, sort of, as that's not been a thing in my life anymore, that sort of fizzled out. But yeah, it was quite interesting to realise that the people that I would generally choose to spend time with were the green woodworking lot. And there's been events where I've gone to, you know, like a spoon fest or something, and I haven't really done any spoons, I've just sat around the fire and knatted with people and you know, and, yeah, and some of those people have gone on to be sort of the people I go to when I need help, or you know they are. I've very much found a group of people which are not always completely similar, but a lot of them are of the same mindset, of the same, quite often brain type. Yeah, yeah, and then, yeah, as I say, yeah, it's sort of Because I keep wanting to go to these events. It sort of keeps me thinking about green woodworking sometimes, and do you so?

Dave Cockroft: 48:18

one thing I would say about that community is I think there's a great generosity.

Jeffrey Hart: 48:27

Yes, I was just going to say that.

Dave Cockroft: 48:30

Yeah, sharing. Let's say sharing and generosity together and sharing, yeah, sharing, because there's a lot of skills sharing and then maybe that leads to other kinds of sharing. So there's some honesty there. Yeah. Maybe there's more honesty than you would typically meet with people you bumped into down the pub.

Jeffrey Hart: 48:52

Yes, Somehow Depends on the pub. Depends on which pub? All right, depends on which pub We'll see. Yeah, I'll take you down the white horse later and we'll see.

Dave Cockroft: 49:06

So one of the things I wanted to mention around relating was one of the things that happened in the Spoon Cover community is people swap spoons or even just give stuff, so there's a lot of gifting, yeah, and the act of gifting, because for a long time the gift economy was the primary economy. Yeah, I mean gifts and debts kind of were interrelated in a lot of communities because you would give but there would be some reciprocity expected from it. Yeah. Not enforced, but kind of because it creates relation. And you know and that's another thing with craft that because a crafted item is not a commodity, so it's not, it's unique. Yeah, and this is unique and usually it comes with its own story that you may actually know the maker, particularly if it's a result of something you've swapped with someone. You know that person. And then you have the thing the spoon or the bowl or the cup or whatever it was that they made, that you're using. And you see people they post on Instagram, they say I'm having breakfast with Amy and Matt and Fred, yeah, or whatever, and that's the bowl and the cup and the spoon they're using. It does feel like that, yeah. Yeah very much so. So you have a big spoon rack on your wall, don't you? I do yeah.

Jeffrey Hart: 50:56

All of my friends.

Dave Cockroft: 50:58

So it does, but it gives that, it keeps you in relation with that person in a totally different way to if they've given you a set of metal spoons that they bought at Argos as a present. It's completely different to that because it's unique and it's been crafted from their hands and what have you?

Jeffrey Hart: 51:24

Yeah, it's had their time and their attention. Yeah. Yeah, it's embodied with a lot.

Dave Cockroft: 51:32

So, anyway, I've got a gift for you here, not a spoon, right? Are you getting time to carve spoons at the moment?

Jeffrey Hart: 51:39

Well, yeah, I'm about to come and live up here and do nothing, but so when you're, when you hear carving on spoons, what is this?

Dave Cockroft: 51:47

We have a piece of this completely bonkers, hawthorne. Wow, so it's been sealed, so it was not going to go off, but how?

Jeffrey Hart: 51:54

brilliant.

Dave Cockroft: 51:55

It's got unbelievable colour through it. That is something special. So that half piece of log I've given you there. The rotten side is gone. You've got the solid side and it's got black bits in it and it's got splashes, it's got crazy bits and all different colours. That is a beautiful thing, so somewhere in there you'll find a few outrageous pieces of wood to turn into spoons.

Jeffrey Hart: 52:17

Yeah, and then people that become patrons and, yeah, it's tough to carve, though You're talking about it being hard and making you humble.

Dave Cockroft: 52:25

That's a bit of wood that might humble you. Yeah, brilliant. Well, thank you, they are. I've been sharing it with just a few folks.

Jeffrey Hart: 52:35

Yeah.

Dave Cockroft: 52:36

You're one of the special ones I'm honoured it was. They were clearing. I'll tell you where the wood came from. In the woodland behind the woodyard over in Tepbriewa I know you've been. Oh, yes, they've been clearing the ash. A lot of wood has died back, yeah. And to bring a big cut-to-peer-attract grabby thing into the woods, yeah, they had to make access and they cut a limb off a big old hawthorn and I went and lost them. They had this amazing, it's monstrous For a hawthorn. It's really big. That's just like one arm of it sticking out in the way of this giant digger. And I saw it and I had to go in with a chainsaw and chop it up. And I had to sneak back in the nighttime when the metworkman went around and steal this hawthorn out. And then I was in bed in the night and I was really achy back and shoulders and I couldn't think of what I'd done. And then I remember, oh, I'd been carrying big lumps of hawthorn across the fields on my back.

Jeffrey Hart: 53:34

Another cover of darkness. Another cover of darkness.

Dave Cockroft: 53:37

So I could bring them out and give them to my friends. Aww, so I have a few more bits to give to people who have expressed interest.

Jeffrey Hart: 53:46

Thank, you, I don't know if you saw, I did an Instagram post a little while back, Just some photos of some spoons that I'd carved, yeah, and then the next. I was suddenly struck by just the level of beauty within them. And there's the subjective beauty of the actual you know what form I've managed to create, and then there's the wood and the patterns in the wood. But then there's also the community side, Like some bits came from Dan up in Ellicottes Wood, and some bits came from Deborah from London, and you know they were all and they were carved, sat around with different people. I was carved. One sat next to Andrea and that's the first time I've met her and it's like you know, there's all these beautiful connections that come from some chunks of wood that have, you know, bobbled with a knife and an axe and yeah, so I think that's yeah, so that's right on with the story.

Dave Cockroft: 54:42

Yeah, exactly, that is sort of exactly elements of that new story and all of this is, I mean, it's not completely free, but it's certainly not expensive. It's not like you have to pay a load of money to do spoon carving every time you want to do it. You've had to make some, you know, investment in, in in your knives and axes, but, like a lot of things, that can bring a lot of pleasure and gratification and bring relationship and reconnection. Because exactly what you were talking about there and that was about reconnecting with beauty and recognizing beauty and acknowledging, you know, this was beauty or some elements of the beauty there you had created through your carving, and some elements were inherent in the wood, but some of the beauty was also in the meaning that's carried from knowing the story of that piece of wood. Yeah, so it's all this sort of deepening and connection that allows us to relate differently, I think, to everything we do and reflect differently, and that we're not just doing this in our heads but it's a practice. Yep. Because it's a physical practice, so it isn't just heady. So that's important part of it. When you're working with a sense of touch, it's very tactile. The objects you create are very tactile as well as visually beautiful. Yeah, it's a wonderful thing.

Jeffrey Hart: 56:48

I think it's interesting that it is all it's all sort of wrapped up in. You know, hesitated to use this word a product, a thing you know, like you can hold that spoon or that basket or whatever it is, and all of that is contained within it, while it's also just a functional thing. You know on one level it's a functional gets food in your face and then you can really delve into it, and it is contained in that physical thing.

Dave Cockroft: 57:21

Yeah, and yeah, it's a utilitarian object. Having said that, I mean yes, it is, and all those things are contained. Have you burned spoons? I have with you yes, have you practiced the practice? I think so. I was going to mention because that's very interesting, because there is also something quite profound in the letting go of that thing. Yep, and people don't understand when they first see people burning spoons. Okay, but it's another practice that is like a ritual practice, particularly if you've thought about the spoon you want to burn and why you might want to burn it. And it doesn't have to be for horrible reasons, it can be for all kinds of different reasons and you can project meaning into that thing you're burning and it's quite good to do, you know, in a group and to make some statement as to why you're burning here, why other people are burning spoons, and then you've destroyed the object that you made or that you've been given or ever, but it has still story attached to it and meaning attached to it and sometimes it can feel like it changed some little thing in yourself when you've done it. And I'm struggling to remember specific examples. I mean I wanted to say is I think if I ever carved a perfect spoon, I would have to burn it, because if I carved a perfect spoon and kept it and I knew I could never make anything more perfect, I'd have to give up spoon carving, so my only real option would be to destroy it. Partly I say that because I know I've annoyed people, but all of a sudden I'm never gonna carve a perfect spoon, so it's not really a problem.

Jeffrey Hart: 59:30

Yeah, perfect is not a real thing.

Dave Cockroft: 59:37

So it's very. Her class spent ages teasing Andrea all summer about trying to do perfect things Right. So, mind you, just recently she's done a few practically perfect spoons. I'm sure there's little faults in them. If you're very critical, wow, I think she should burn them. Get back to basics. Anyway, I'm sorry, I was just a thing. That's been my sort of head. I kind of unless you've got questions popped up or other things you fancy saying- I suppose I do.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:00:28

How could we make this a larger thing and I'm not necessarily talking about spoon carving, I may be talking about, you know, if we're to save the world with this restoring, how could this sort of expand outwards to connect with other people in their lives?

Dave Cockroft: 1:00:47

Well, I mean, I certainly, if I'm placing this as a thing I'm wanting to explore.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:01:02

Yeah, oh yeah, sorry, I don't expect you to have a perfect answer.

Dave Cockroft: 1:01:06

No, no, no, I wasn't saying that way. So I was kind of saying to anyone who listens to this and finds some of what we've talked about to whole meaning for them or have some congruence with things they're thinking, I'm very, very happy to hear from them.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:01:26

Oh, I see and would like to be in conversation with them.

Dave Cockroft: 1:01:31

So we could think of this chat we're having now as a bit of a conversation starter or kind of a provocation, if you like. And my challenge yeah, that's what my provocation is I think we should regard this practice as something much more important than a little hobby. We do, yeah, but actually acknowledge it that it is a radical act because it is anti-capitalist and anti-consumption and it's about uniqueness and it's about relating and it's about reconnecting and it's about being in community and it's about respecting nature, and that those are all part of the analogy I like about the story that needs to emerge, the new stories that we will live by, is the analogy of weaving cloth and that we reach a thread within that cloth, but together we weave. So this is one of the threads and what I like to find is other people who are weaving a similar pattern and want to come and work together to weave a piece of this new narrative around craft practice and the way in which engaging in that practice transforms the practitioner. So I think I would postulate that carving spoons changes the carver and that's quite a profound thing. So I feel changed by having carved spoons for a few years and by all the people I've met, yourself included and I hope in positive ways. That helps me reflect and relate and be more mindful in the ways I might try and bring about change in the world.

Jeffrey Hart: 1:04:31

Alright. Thank you, Dave. Such a good episode. I'm so pleased that that really does. It wraps up kind of a lot of my thinking around craft and sustainability and why I keep really putting these sorts of episodes in the podcast. Yeah, and you'll be pleased to know that we did indeed go to the White Horse and sat drinking beer and rummaging through a big box of spoons that Dave carries around with him, admiring every curve and detail. Okay, so Dave's links. Dave has sent loads of links. I'm just going to run through them very quickly. What they are. So the Rise RYSE, which is the Radical Youth Space for Education. Check out the podcast, check out the blog good stuff going on there. Also a school called Home, which is Dougal Dine and his recent book At Work in the Ruins. Tyson Yonker Porter for his promotion of yarning as a method of cooperative exploration of ideas. The book Sand Talk is in particular, so links to that. Gesturing Towards Decolonial Futures. That's definitely worth a read. Martin Shaw and all of his books of wisdom. A good start is the podcast, the Smokehole Sessions, the book CAUTING, THE WILD TWIN. I'll put links to those he says. There's many others, too many to mention, but if any of this resonates with you, then please get in touch and he is very happy to yarn with you to further explore and find news stories to live by. Yeah, really good. He signed off his message to me with good luck with the school. Just think of it in terms of the list on Decolonial Futures homepage. Do that stuff and you're well on track. Number three of the list is it's all about composting our individual and collective shit and humility, joy, generosity and compassion, trying to dig deeper and relate wider. Nice Thanks for those, Dave. I've also put a link to the Cortical Homunculus I'm not sure if that's how you say that the thing which is a distorted representation of the human body based on a neurological map of the areas and proportions of the human brain dedicated to processing motor functions or sensory functions for different parts of the body. I recommend you scroll down to the 3D models, which are quite, quite a thing. Take a look at that. So Dave's Instagram, also Netcom Craft School, my Instagram, all of that sort of stuff Write the spoon giveaway. So if you'd like to win the very first spoon carved at Netcom Craft School from the wood that Dave gifted me in this episode, all you have to do is comment on the Instagram post for this episode on the Building Sustainability Podcast Instagram account. The post isn't going to mention a giveaway, because I just want people like you who have listened all the way to the end to enter. No one else gets the chance. So if you just comment and say a reflection on what you've just heard or your favourite bit of the episode, and I'll pick a winner in a month or so. And yeah, someone will be eating with a delicious Hawthorne spoon, but the colours really are quite spectacular. Yes, if this was your first episode, then definitely subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. And you've got 103 other episodes and some little bite-size ones. Don't miss those. Yeah, go plow back through the archives. So if this was your thing, then I'd recommend. Next one is episode with Barn the Spoon. It is episode 22 and it is on New Wood Culture. There's a link to that in the show notes. If you have enjoyed this, then please do take two seconds to share the episode to your favourite social media or tell your family or friend or person on the bus. Thank you very much, appreciate that. And finally, if you do find this podcast useful, then consider supporting via the Patreon page, patreoncom forward slash building sustainability. It helps me out so much and you get about 10 hours worth of bonus content to enjoy at your leisure. Great, that is it for me. I hope that you are happy and well and warm and smiling. I'm also smiling. Until next time, bye, bye.